The fear is creeping in.

[Fairway]

I'll be at Springer March 1-5 and I don't want to be sleeping cold. I've either been spending too much time reading posts here on whiteblaze or, I have some rational concerns. I'll let y'all decide.

10-12 years ago I always camped and hiked in the Fall on into the Spring. I've hiked the Georgia AT in Winter twice (right after Christmas). I remember 3 consecutive nights freezing my tail off. I haven't camped in winter since because of those cold nights. I have different gear now and more experience although not cold experience. Earlier this summer, on my PCT thru, I dreaded the cold nights in the Sierra. I had one uncomfortable night there. My last two nights in Washington were also very cold. I slept fine I just wasn't comfortable. Clearly I'm a cold sleeper.

I've got the standard 3 season kit;

Wool long johns
Down Sweater
Wool cap
liner gloves
wool socks
20 degree Quilt
Closed cell pad
In addition to this stuff, I'm packing a micro fleece and a pair of wool mitts.

I'm considering bulking up the warmth in 1 of 2 ways:
1) Adding a 30 degree synthetic bag (which I have).
2) Adding army field liner pants w/ silly down booties. (I don't have these)
Also I'm thinking about adding a 1/8" sleeping pad (I don't have).

I'm in NE Florida until the end of the month so I can't field test cold gear. Is the stuff I have enough? Should I pack an extra sleeping bag or insulate my body with puffy clothing? Is there something else I haven't thought of? I know I can buy whatever I need at Neels gap and I'm probably not gonna die. I just can't get these irrational fears out of my head. I'm getting cold just thinking about getting cold.

[Lyle]

1) Down booties are not "silly". They are VERY effective in adding to your comfort.
2) Add a second pad for ground insulation. It doesn't matter how much insulation you add on top if the ground is sucking the warmth from your body underneath. One pad is not enough once it gets down into the teens.

[Lyle]

I would get a second full thickness pad.

[HikerMom58]

I'm listening to this advice as well.....

[Deb]

I always take a few chemical heat packs.

[Fairway]

I would get a second full thickness pad.

Thanks Lyle, I think you may be spot on here.

I'd also like to add that I'm familiar with the hot bottle trick and know enough to eat lots of food in cold weather.

[Lyle]

Also, if I were you, and could swing it, I'd get a warmer bag for the start/end of the trip. If you know you are a cold sleeper, get a 15 degree (or even a 0 degree) bag. Much more efficient that two bags. Two bags will work though, just bulky and heavy. You may also be fine with just your extra clothes.

My goal when planing cold weather trips is to take what I know I'll be comfortable with at the temperatures expected. And make sure I have what I need to survive the worst possible conditions. I try to reserve my extra clothes/layers for the latter.

[Marta]

For me the main thing is not to become chilled before getting wrapped up. Once your body temp has dropped, you'll be shivering for hours, possibly all night, no matter how much clothing you put on and how think your sleeping bag and pad. Try to capture the heat you've built up while hiking before it dissipates into the cold night air.

[Malto]

Given you have completed the PCT you are in a much better position than 99% of the AT hikers. Nights on the PCT get cold as does the AT in the Spring so you already have a good feel for what to expect. I tweaked my UL PCT thru hike gear for winter conditions on the southern and central AT. I upgraded my pad to a 5.7R Neoair xtherm. Second, I will wear my rain gear directly over my base layer as a VBL and that has significantly increased the lower temperature limit of my 20deg quilt. Other than that, it is exactly the same gear that I took on the PCT

Finally, I suspect you have learned a lot since your earlier experiences on the AT. How to layer, and not overdress when going to bed, eating directly before bed and other strategies are probably second nature to you at this point, it's called experience. Don't fear, as you well know you can adapt.

[Karma13]

I'd change up the pad or add to it before changing the other stuff. I don't know what kind of CCF pad you have, but maybe an R value of 3-ish? -- which, as far as I can tell from my research, is comfortable down to about 40 degrees, high thirties. A 0-degree bag with a 30-degree mat is only going to be good to 30 degrees.

[grayfox]

All good ideas above--

What is your quilt like? Does it seal well without leaving a foot out in the cold? Since you have another bag you should probably take it along if you can use both the bag and quilt together. You should be able to wear all your clothes and use both bag and quilt and not feel like you are a mummy. It is a trade off, you want to be able to move comfortably without having to warm too much extra air inside the bag.

Wear your hat and socks to bed, use chemical warming packs, and have a pee bottle nearby.

[prain4u]

For me the main thing is not to become chilled before getting wrapped up. Once your body temp has dropped, you'll be shivering for hours, possibly all night, no matter how much clothing you put on and how think your sleeping bag and pad. Try to capture the heat you've built up while hiking before it dissipates into the cold night air.

I agree. However--it can be somewhat of a balancing act sometimes. If you get into your sleeping clothes and/or your sleeping bag too early (when you are still semi-perspiring) you can overheat/perspire while in your sleeping clothes and sleeping bag. That can also make for an uncomfortable and cool/cold night as that perspiration gathers on your sleeping clothes or sleeping bag and condenses. The ideal is to get ready for bed when you are no longer overly warm and before you cool off too much.

[fredmugs]

I hate the cold too but since I've been placing a nalgene bottle full of boiling water in my bag when I go to bed it's better.

[bigcranky]

Since you have a good 20F quilt, the things I would add are down booties, possibly the field liner pants, and upping the ground insulation. Maybe add a down hat, too, since your wool watch cap probably isn't warm enough.

We just bought a pair of Goosefeet for my wife, and they are very nicely made and puff up like nobody's business. Awesome, and at ~2.5 ounces she can bring them on most every trip.

The other thing we've learned the hard way is to warm up her sleeping bag, either with heat packs or by carrying a real Nalgene bottle and doing the boiling water trick for 30 minutes before she goes to bed.

[Datto]

If you start March 1-5 with that gear, you'll likely freeze your begonias off for several nights. It gets too cold that early on the AT (could get to 0*F and windy) to be able to get by with what you have planned on that early of a start date. It'll probably be way colder on the AT at the beginning of March than it ever was for you on the PCT.

Suggestions:

Option 1) Move your start date to April 1st and go with the original gear you have planned -- you'll have a few chilly nights with that gear but it won't be so bone chilling cold that a March 1-5 start will be.

Option 2) Get a 15*F or (preferably) better/warmer sleeping bag from Western Mountaineering, get a Neoair and a Ridgerest and put those onto some kite-weight Tyvek in the shelter and carry a Mylar sleeping bag (Space brand or American something brand -- don't get the cheap $4.00 brands -- they'll break on the first night) to put inside it on the bitter cold nights with a hot water bottle (use a Gatorade bottle to save weight rather than a Nalgene). I wouldn't even consider taking a quilt or a combo quilt/30*F syn bag -- it'll just be too cold on the AT for that. Also, make sure to take eyehooks and some string so you can put your carry-on shelter (tent or tarp) across the front of the shelter to block the howling wind, assuming you're planning to stay in shelters in order to block some of the wind and to be able to get out earlier in the morning.


Datto

[sfdoc]

Good luck on your journey. As for the cold, add the Army field jacket liner. Weighs next to nothing and really works. Also, when you get coul during the night, eat some fatty food (sausage, etc., and drin some water (careful with the piss bottle). You don't need a lot, but the body burning the fat will probably get you through the night. Worked for me when I was on a winter field excercise in Norway.

[Tundra]

I'd add the quilt and an 1/8 inch Thinlight pad from gossamer gear. Send them home once it's warmer.

[handlebar]

I'd add the thinlight pad and if it was especially cold, sleep on the ground in my tarp or tent. In a shelter the cold air flows under the floor and turns it into a big heat sink. Typically, the ground is no colder than 32F.

[Dogwood]

I'm not getting it Fairway. Not trying to offend but I would think someone who thrued the PCT would know how to adapt to the changing conditions, particularly temp swings, of a PCT thru especially since you said you know you're a cold sleeper. Going into the Sierras did you make any kit changes? Some PCTers do. What was your entry date? What did you do to stay warm in the Sierras compared to the lower elevation less exposure Mojave Desert? You said nothing about your in camp set-up either. What are you using for shelter? You do know that an enclosed shelter increases the temp at which you sleep, sometimes by as much as 10*. You could also add a bag liner(I like Cocoon silk mummy liners) to add a few degrees of warmth, like 5-8*. When I want to add warmth to my sleep system I tweak my kit with a water resistant highly breathable bivy, Cocoon silk mummy liner, and CCF pad for insulation. I'll also switch out from a NeoAir Shortie to a NeoAir Women's NeoAir which had a higher R-value and is longer so I'm more insulated from the ground. When really cold I sleep in my merino beanie, nylon gloves, dry rain jacket and/or rain pants and Goosefeet down Booties in addition to whatever dry layers I have. The Goosefeet down booties may seem a bit foo foo to you but IMHO staying warm weather hiking or when sleeping involves keeping my core, torso, around the heart area, from the upper thigh to my neck down to my elbows, and my extremities, head, feet and hands, warm. You never mentioned where you generally feel cold when sleeping. Sometimes it makes a difference like if it's you're extremities getting cold or whether you just feel cold in general. You might also be having draft issues sleeping in a quilt, losing the warmth captured in the quilt. I know I did until I started gaining more experience using the quilt. You might consider the quilt for when it's warmer and have a a separate warmer(lower temp rated) sleeping bag with a good sealing draft collar and draft tube for the start and end of a AT thru-hike. And, of course, there are lots of other tricks to employ if you're a cold sleeper or hiking in COLD weather. Some of those tricks have been mentioned already here but do some further cold weather camping research and you'll find many more.

You also say you live in GA so you should know what the typical weather is like in early March on the AT for a NOBO thru.

BTW, fear coupled with cold, isn't going to make anything better. You got info, know come up with what works best FOR YOU.

[Fairway]

Dogwood, no worries, you didn't offend me at all. My only objection is that your second sentence is almost unreadable. Let me see if I can explain myself further and put us both on the same page. I had 3 uncomfortable nights on the PCT. 3 bad nights out of 120 nights ain't too shabby. My concern, is that temps for a March 1st AT NOBO thru are much colder than temps for a May 1st PCT NOBO thru. Without a thermometer reading the most objective way to explain this is with frozen water bottles..... bear with me.

I mentioned I had 3 uncomfortable nights on the PCT. Only one of those 3 nights was cold enough to put a thin ring of ice in my water bottles. I always had atleast one bottle outside the tent. Now, if I were to leave bottles outside my tent every night in March on the AT, I wouldn't be surprised to find them frozen, partially if not solid, on at least one occasion. If I was uncomfortable when the temps barely iced my bottles, how miserable will I be when the temps get low enough to freeze a water bottle? Is that explanation "getting it" for you?

Answers to questions:
-I have a zlite pad.
-I shipped a rain jacket/pants to Kennedy Meadows.
-I headed into the Sierra June 9th.
-I wore the rain pants over long johns at night. I added a down sweater, hat, gloves, and jacket when needed.
-I set up a tarp tent every night after KM.
-There was never a specific cold spot, I was cold in general.
-Drafts in the quilt were obvious b/c they always woke me. After a few nights they were easily dealt with.
-The coldest night was at Diaz Creek in the Sierra. The campsite is down in a drainage basin... naturally the cold air slides down into the valley floor making Diaz Creek a notorious cold spot.