Tank It Up Or Not?

[Kookork]

There's just too much disinformation in this thread and it's gonna lead to fear mongering. Tanking up, or as I call it "cameling" isn't about taking in "extra" water. You're not stopping and drinking a gallon at a time. I hit a water source, slam a liter and keep moving. Why? Because water is heavy and I hate carrying it! This doesn't mean I'm consuming "extra" water, it just means I'm not sipping as I go...I replenish and move on. Hyponatremia by definition is too little sodium per unit of volume in the extracellular space. Ions are usually measured by mEq/L and the normal serum Na concentration is 135-145. Dip below this range and you're looking at lethargy, confusion, loss of consciousness, coma, seizures, and cardiovascular collapse. In short, it's not good. Low sodium is usually the result of dilutional factors. This is why you hear the term "water intoxication." There's two main fluid compartments within the body, intracellular and extracellular. Intracellular is within the cells, extra is outside of the cells. The extracellular volume is also comprised of compartments, interstitial (between the cells) and intravascular (within vessels...this is your blood). There's also potential spacing but that's not really important here. Ions are also divided up into intra and extracellular. Wherever the ion is most concentrated is where it's considered to be. Sodium is an extracellular ion( sorry but sodium is only mainly extracellular but we have sodium intracellular also which the balance is regulated by exchanging potassium with sodium, potassuim is more intracellular sodium more extracellular but we still have intracellular sodium and extracellular potassium) and correlates directly with chloride ions. NaCl is salt. What's happening with water intoxication related to hiking is people are out in the heat, working themselves, and sweating. Sweat isn't just water, it contains salts. You're essentially oozing salts and fluids out of your body, and then replenishing just the fluids. This dilutes the extracellular Na and leads to conduction abnormalities in the central nervous system...Hence all of the bad things happening with your brain. Unless you have dysfunctional kidneys, some kind of hypoaldosterone pathology, or you consume an insane amount of fluids rapidly, your kidneys aren't gonna spray out Na all willy-nilly. The excessive sodium loss is via sweating. If you and I are both using the same amount of water per unit time, and I camel a liter for the next hour, and you sip your liter for the next hour, it's essentially the same thing. It's still the same volume per unit time. I think you're assuming that "cameling" is drinking an insane amount of fluid in a short amount of time and your body just spills it out. That's not how it works.

"In a normal individual any extra water turns to urine in less than 30 minutes and does not make any real difference in hydration status of the individual." I have no idea where this came from( Forget about it that I have been a medical doctor for 20 years and passed the qualification exam in UK just six years ago this comes from the fact that when you drink excessive water you feel the urge to urinate in half an hour, Plain and simple ). If I slam a liter of saline in a patient in 15min, they don't pee out a liter within the next 30minutes. IV fluids are going directly to the intravascular compartment, filtered directly through the kidneys...I think you'd be hard pressed to find data that supports that statement.

I'm not down playing the risk of water intoxication...I just want to make it clear that slamming a liter ever so often, versus sipping a liter in the same time isn't going to lead to acute water intoxication. Is it probably "nicer" for the body to sip fluids over time, yah, probably( not probably, definitely), but are you placing yourself at extreme risk by doing so? Probably not. Most of the stories I've heard about water intoxication or extreme dehydration were totally avoidable. You really do have to work at it to jack up your electrolytes. Also, everyone focuses on how thirsty they feel, no one ever talks about their urine. Urine should be clear yellow...not yellow, not dark yellow, definitely NOT tea colored...clear yellow! If your pee is getting dark, drink more fluids.

Overall you mentioned very good points.
It boils down to electrolyte balance which has always been a boring subject when I was studying and practicing medicine( and extremely complicated one)

[OzJacko]

I don't sip - I don't carry a water bag.
I carry bottles and drink as often as I feel I need to.
Drinking before you start when near a water source is what we should all do.
Where "camelling up" is an issue and what the OP seemed to be querying is drinking well in excess of your need at the time.
This is not the same as say - drinking a half litre when you only feel like 200ml.
A whole litre when you are not thirsty to begin with is to me about where it becomes silly.
But HYOH.
But for me I see a litre when I don't want it as about good for 600ml as I'll pee the extra 400ml within an hour.

[Rasty]

To misquote someone here.

"It's just drinking"

Good info. I learned something today.

[Kookork]

We have a very old story in Iran which says: Once in a hot summer somebody was lost in the desert and could not find water for a long time. after some days he finally reached a village and knocked the door and asked for water. The host brought him a large container of cold water with a very tiny hole to drink of. The lost guy struggled for a while but finally he managed to drink water from the container in matter of hours. After he regained his composer he thanked the host and asked him why he gave him such a container with such a small hole to drink? He answered : You were lost for a long time and you have lost too much salt via sweating, it was dangerous to drink water in excess but I knew I can not force you to drink slowly so I brought this container.

[garlic08]

...Am I missing something? how has been your experience in real hiking situation? I like to know your take about it.

Here in AZ, I've done a lot of dry hikes, up to 40 miles between water sources repeatedly, and more than that once. I like to think I've gained some experience in carrying water and food for dry conditions.

I don't camel up, other than to drink an extra half liter or so at the source (and bathe, eat, rest, etc, especially if it's been two days). I'll pee an extra couple of times in the next couple hours of walking, and that's just fine. It's very uncomfortable for me to drink more than I need, so I don't do it.

One wake-up situation I had early on in desert hiking was realizing I was eating salty food and I didn't taste the salt. I ate two day's worth of salty crackers, licked the package they came in, and actually used the Ramen flavor packet which I usually discard. I was craving salt and luckily had enough with me to satisfy the craving. Since then, I've carried extra salty stuff in dry conditions.

When I was younger, the common wisdom I adhered to was that one should urinate "clearly and copiously". I've since learned that it's OK to have yellow pee for a while in dry hiking situations. Peeing essentially water is wasting water. You don't want thick, syrupy pee, but a little yellow is fine.

I'm not sipper. Hydration bladders and tubes are not reliable enough for my hiking conditions--how I know that is a longer story. I keep a bottle handy in the side pocket of my pack and drink from that several times an hour.

Colter's done a lot of desert hiking recently--I hope he tells us how he manages it.

[DeerPath]

Just wondering, will a daily Multivitamin pill replace the lost electrolytes?

[fredmugs]

Like with most situations it depends. I don't camel up for the sake of cameling up. However factors like the weather, upcoming terrain, future water sources, etc may make me drink my fill.

[colorado_rob]

Just wondering, will a daily Multivitamin pill replace the lost electrolytes?

Nope, sorry. Eat salty snacks or take "E-tabs". Just one other take on this subject: I do regularly "tank up", plumping up those cells as much as possible, usually the night before and in the morning, lots of tea/coffee (yeah, I know caffeine is somewhat counterproductive), then drink fairly modestly during the day's hiking. Just my own modus operandi, and it treats me well.

[Just Jack]

How much Gatorade or Propel would you have to consume--per liter of water--to keep the electrolytes
in balance. I understand it depends on how hot it is, how hard you are working, how much one is sweating,but,
what would be a good plan for electrolyte replacement?

[Alligator]

Watch your urine color to judge dehydration but be aware that if you are eating stuff like Clif bars they have vitamins in them that will turn your urine yellow.

I have from time to time looked for articles citing absorption rates but have not been successful. This article cites a quarter liter per quarter hour rate and even for some people a quarter liter per 10 minutes rate. That still leaves the question of how long the water lingers meaning is it still available for absorption or is urinated out.

[FarmerChef]

How much Gatorade or Propel would you have to consume--per liter of water--to keep the electrolytes
in balance. I understand it depends on how hot it is, how hard you are working, how much one is sweating,but,
what would be a good plan for electrolyte replacement?

I don't know the answer to that question. On really hard, hot days I'll mix a bit of gatorade powder in my water to augment the salts already in my gorp and snacks. On most days, I just make a semi-strong cup of gatorade for all of us to drink at dinner. Everyone jokes they have to drink their "pee juice." During the day, our primary salt comes from salted nuts in our gorp. I eat low sodium and it tastes very salty on the trail. Planters really likes to coat their nuts in salt.

[MuddyWaters]

When I think "camel up", I dont think of 1/2 liter, or even up to a liter when you are really thirsty and dehydrated reaching a water source.

Somewhere between 1 and 2 liters, intentionally in a short period of time, when you are already hydrated well enough, is what I would think of when I think attempting to "camel".

In college, I used to run several miles every day, sometimes more, sometimes less, but always sprinting the last 1/4 mile back home as fast as I could. Id get home, collapse in a beanbag chair on the floor in front of TV, and drink most of a whole 1/2 gallon 40F water from a cold glass orange juice container kept in the refrigerator.

One thing to consider, is everyone is dehydrated in the morning anyway. Early morning pee is usually dark, you havent had anything to drink in 8-12 hrs, all the while losing moisture to respiration and urine buildup. Everyone NEEDs a fair bit of water in the morning before hitting the trail, or they could stay dehydrated much of the day. First thing I generally do every morning at home when I wake up is drink a large glass (~24oz) of water. Then I grab my coffee and head out the door. Certainly not cameling, just replenishing fluids.

[leaftye]

I camel up all the time. I think the most I've had is 2 liters. I certainly wasn't at risk of overhydration.

One thing to consider, is everyone is dehydrated in the morning anyway.

On the trail I usually wake up for a drink. Even so, it's not unusual for me to drink a liter of water in the morning before my thirst is quenched.

[fiddlehead]

I also camel up at water sources.
I watch my pee and if it's not clear, I drink more.
I don't like carrying water.
On the AT, I probably carry water about 50% of the time, depending on when it rained last, where I'm hiking and if I'm going up on a high ridge for a while without coming down. (like in PA in July/Aug)
I eat salty foods when my body craves them.

Here in Thailand, where it's almost always very hot, I'll drink 2 litres before heading out and carry a half litre with me for the next 3-4 hours.
Sometimes I have to find a water source, if not, I get wicked deydrated and have a rough night.

Not saying it's the right way, it's just my way of doing things.
I don't like carrying a lot of water.

[Sly]

What color means you have healthy urine?

A light yellow urine color typically signifies a very healthy urine. The light straw yellow urine will have a low odor, few bubbles in the urine, little to no foam, and have a clear urine consistency.
Congratulations, your urine is probably healthy.
Shouldn't healthy urine be clear?

While it would seem that the clearer the urine the more healthy, that is not necessarily the case. If your urine color is very clear, it is showing a high concentration of water, and a lower concentration of actual waste. Clear urine could mean you are very well hydrated, but a low concentration of waste is not necessarily a good thing. What this means is that you need to pee more in order to get rid the waste your body doesn't need.

[aficion]

There's just too much disinformation in this thread and it's gonna lead to fear mongering. Tanking up, or as I call it "cameling" isn't about taking in "extra" water. You're not stopping and drinking a gallon at a time. I hit a water source, slam a liter and keep moving. Why? Because water is heavy and I hate carrying it! This doesn't mean I'm consuming "extra" water, it just means I'm not sipping as I go...I replenish and move on. Hyponatremia by definition is too little sodium per unit of volume in the extracellular space. Ions are usually measured by mEq/L and the normal serum Na concentration is 135-145. Dip below this range and you're looking at lethargy, confusion, loss of consciousness, coma, seizures, and cardiovascular collapse. In short, it's not good. Low sodium is usually the result of dilutional factors. This is why you hear the term "water intoxication." There's two main fluid compartments within the body, intracellular and extracellular. Intracellular is within the cells, extra is outside of the cells. The extracellular volume is also comprised of compartments, interstitial (between the cells) and intravascular (within vessels...this is your blood). There's also potential spacing but that's not really important here. Ions are also divided up into intra and extracellular. Wherever the ion is most concentrated is where it's considered to be. Sodium is an extracellular ion and correlates directly with chloride ions. NaCl is salt. What's happening with water intoxication related to hiking is people are out in the heat, working themselves, and sweating. Sweat isn't just water, it contains salts. You're essentially oozing salts and fluids out of your body, and then replenishing just the fluids. This dilutes the extracellular Na and leads to conduction abnormalities in the central nervous system...Hence all of the bad things happening with your brain. Unless you have dysfunctional kidneys, some kind of hypoaldosterone pathology, or you consume an insane amount of fluids rapidly, your kidneys aren't gonna spray out Na all willy-nilly. The excessive sodium loss is via sweating. If you and I are both using the same amount of water per unit time, and I camel a liter for the next hour, and you sip your liter for the next hour, it's essentially the same thing. It's still the same volume per unit time. I think you're assuming that "cameling" is drinking an insane amount of fluid in a short amount of time and your body just spills it out. That's not how it works.

"In a normal individual any extra water turns to urine in less than 30 minutes and does not make any real difference in hydration status of the individual." I have no idea where this came from. If I slam a liter of saline in a patient in 15min, they don't pee out a liter within the next 30minutes. IV fluids are going directly to the intravascular compartment, filtered directly through the kidneys...I think you'd be hard pressed to find data that supports that statement.

I'm not down playing the risk of water intoxication...I just want to make it clear that slamming a liter ever so often, versus sipping a liter in the same time isn't going to lead to acute water intoxication. Is it probably "nicer" for the body to sip fluids over time, yah, probably, but are you placing yourself at extreme risk by doing so? Probably not. Most of the stories I've heard about water intoxication or extreme dehydration were totally avoidable. You really do have to work at it to jack up your electrolytes. Also, everyone focuses on how thirsty they feel, no one ever talks about their urine. Urine should be clear yellow...not yellow, not dark yellow, definitely NOT tea colored...clear yellow! If your pee is getting dark, drink more fluids.

"What he said." + Been cameling up,(for this human that means a little less than a liter over appx 5 minutes) and hiking long and hard my whole life. I only carry water when I know there is no more to be had today, which is very rare indeed in the mountains here, (Southern Appalachians). Pee the color of lemonade does not mean dehydration. Clear pee, during hard prolonged exercise will not occur, unless you are making yourself drink way more than you want or need. This wastes electrolytes, energy, time, water, etc. Carrying water makes sense in dryer places. Not so much here.
If you must carry extra fluid, please make it Bourbon or Scotch, and in enough quantity to be shared. Thanks.

[Matthikes]

Interesting thread. Learn something new everyday.

[Franco]

My take is that just as we can habituate our body to eat more , we can do exactly the same when drinking.In other words if you start to drink say an extra liter of water after breakfast, eventually you will need to drink that extra liter...
On the trail my observation is that folk that use bladders sipping all the way from them, drink (and sweat...) a lot more then I do, yet I don't get dehydrated I just pee and sweat less.
I see this somewhat the same as a guy that is happy to have two beers per night when the next "needs" to have 5 or 10.
The 10 beer a night guy also started with 1 or 2...
An apple a day keeps the doctor away. Fifty apples a day not so much...

[Wise Old Owl]

Interesting thread... Yes I camel up, 1 liter is easier to carry in one's tummy! but I also carry potassium.

[fiddlehead]

There's just too much disinformation in this thread and it's gonna lead to fear mongering. Tanking up, or as I call it "cameling" isn't about taking in "extra" water. You're not stopping and drinking a gallon at a time. I hit a water source, slam a liter and keep moving. Why? Because water is heavy and I hate carrying it! This doesn't mean I'm consuming "extra" water, it just means I'm not sipping as I go...I replenish and move on. Hyponatremia by definition is too little sodium per unit of volume in the extracellular space. Ions are usually measured by mEq/L and the normal serum Na concentration is 135-145. Dip below this range and you're looking at lethargy, confusion, loss of consciousness, coma, seizures, and cardiovascular collapse. In short, it's not good. Low sodium is usually the result of dilutional factors. This is why you hear the term "water intoxication." There's two main fluid compartments within the body, intracellular and extracellular. Intracellular is within the cells, extra is outside of the cells. The extracellular volume is also comprised of compartments, interstitial (between the cells) and intravascular (within vessels...this is your blood). There's also potential spacing but that's not really important here. Ions are also divided up into intra and extracellular. Wherever the ion is most concentrated is where it's considered to be. Sodium is an extracellular ion and correlates directly with chloride ions. NaCl is salt. What's happening with water intoxication related to hiking is people are out in the heat, working themselves, and sweating. Sweat isn't just water, it contains salts. You're essentially oozing salts and fluids out of your body, and then replenishing just the fluids. This dilutes the extracellular Na and leads to conduction abnormalities in the central nervous system...Hence all of the bad things happening with your brain. Unless you have dysfunctional kidneys, some kind of hypoaldosterone pathology, or you consume an insane amount of fluids rapidly, your kidneys aren't gonna spray out Na all willy-nilly. The excessive sodium loss is via sweating. If you and I are both using the same amount of water per unit time, and I camel a liter for the next hour, and you sip your liter for the next hour, it's essentially the same thing. It's still the same volume per unit time. I think you're assuming that "cameling" is drinking an insane amount of fluid in a short amount of time and your body just spills it out. That's not how it works.

"In a normal individual any extra water turns to urine in less than 30 minutes and does not make any real difference in hydration status of the individual." I have no idea where this came from. If I slam a liter of saline in a patient in 15min, they don't pee out a liter within the next 30minutes. IV fluids are going directly to the intravascular compartment, filtered directly through the kidneys...I think you'd be hard pressed to find data that supports that statement.

I'm not down playing the risk of water intoxication...I just want to make it clear that slamming a liter ever so often, versus sipping a liter in the same time isn't going to lead to acute water intoxication. Is it probably "nicer" for the body to sip fluids over time, yah, probably, but are you placing yourself at extreme risk by doing so? Probably not. Most of the stories I've heard about water intoxication or extreme dehydration were totally avoidable. You really do have to work at it to jack up your electrolytes. Also, everyone focuses on how thirsty they feel, no one ever talks about their urine. Urine should be clear yellow...not yellow, not dark yellow, definitely NOT tea colored...clear yellow! If your pee is getting dark, drink more fluids.

I agree.
And I "camel up" at water sources and don't carry much water unless I'm desert hiking and have to go 20 miles to the next water source.