UL Winter Setups for around Zero Degrees

[Chance09]

Lets say you were planning on starting a Sobo AT thru hike starting January 1st. How lightweight do you think you could go and still survive? Would you go with a bivy? Small one man tent? maybe a four season hammock setup?

For the sake of argument lets just assume that this is a hypothetical situation and spare me all the comments on how absolutely terrible/dangerous of an idea it is...i already know that lol.

[The Solemates]

i hike in southern appalachia year round. i have a big agnes 2-man and a 0 degree bag. i could go with a 1-man and be comfortable i suppose if i really wanted. the bag is more important than the tent.

[leaftye]

I do have a 0°F cuben fiber quilt, but I'd use a sleeping bag if I were expecting single digit temperatures more often than not. ~20 oz Warmlite pad, 3 1/2 BD 4-season tent and a 3 oz down balaclava. Other than snow stakes, that pretty much takes care of sleeping.

[Tipi Walter]

Southbound from Maine/New Hampshire in January? Good luck. Have snowshoes, ice axe and crampons, for starters. That's about 6 lbs right off.

Even NOBOs don't stay on the trail long in the winter---January starts in Geogia usually result in bail outs after the first snowstorm. Why? Because the ridgetops get walloped with 2 to 3 foot drifts and exhausting postholing, along with "snowdowns" whereby the rhodo and evergreens collapse onto the trail with snow load. If you like crawling on your belly for a couple miles, well, go for it.

The biggest problem I see with winter backpackers is their reluctance to carry enough clothing for camp comfort---you can't get to camp and live in your sleeping bag until morning. So you will need some overkill winter garments to help you get over the long stretches below 20F. Nighttime temps can get to 0F.

Another reluctance---to carry warm enough bags. Most backpackers are lucky to have a down bag in the 0F range. I'd go with something around -15F.

[garlic08]

My concern would not only be one of sleeping and insulation--it would also be locomotion. One of the foundations of my UL set-up is the ability to travel fast, to get out of dangerous weather situations, like walking an extra 8 miles fast after dinner to get below tree line, or walking 30 miles out to town in one day to beat an incoming storm.

Deep snow and probably snowshoe travel would drastically change that equation. I'm a relatively accomplished backcountry skier, so in some conditions I do quite well in winter, but probably not on the AT from what I remember of the trail conditions. I haven't heard of many skiers on the AT. I'm thinking of the "straight up the rock face, sometimes on a ladder" sections. Crampons and climbing axes might even be needed?

From snowshoe trip experiences in the Rockies, I would cut my miles per day to about a third of normal, and increase my food per day by at least half. Fuel could more than double. That would make a huge load and it would not be UL any more in my book.

Continuing with the hypothesis, though, I'd probably go with a Tarptent Scarp, thought I'd lust after a Hilleberg Atko. I'd spend major bucks on the best 0F sleeping bag I could find, and carry an extra sleeping pad. And a white gas stove. With all that gear, it's not really UL anymore either--I doubt I could get it under 15 pounds.

[Snowleopard]

Your first step is to contact Baxter State Park to find out what their rules are for winter access to Katahdin. They used to require that you submit your climbing resume, but that may have changed.

Experience: for northern New England you need a substantial amount of experience in deep snow, ice, temps below -20F, above tree line travel in very high winds and low temps. It's probably not possible to get this experience in VA, you'll need to travel to the White Mts., Adirondacks, CO, Antarctica, etc.

You need a strong team of experienced winter hikers.
You need a real winter tent that will support a snow load.
Snowshoes.
Crampons.
Iceaxe, and training in its use.
Sleeping bag good to -40F (e.g., Feathered Friends Snow Goose (-40F) or Snowy Owl (-60F), http://featheredfriends.com/index.ph...gs.html?cat=37 ) People often use a -20F bag in the White Mountains in winter, but they are not through hiking and can change their plans if the weather is bad.
Two sleeping pads.
Vapor barrier liner or clothes for sleeping.
Winter double plastic mountaineering boots.

Philip at http://sectionhiker.com/winter-backp...critique-away/ has a 31 lb winter backpacking gear list, but this is not intended for through hiking. He would certainly back out of a short trip if the weather forecast turned too bad. As a through hiker you would not have this luxury; you could be in a very inaccessible place when the weather turns bad. You'll sometimes need to carry a lot of food. My guess is that a minimum pack weight would be 50 to 70 lb, depending on how much food/fuel you need to carry.

There is at least one hiker on WB who has done a winter SOBO thru-hike. I think it was in a relatively low snow period and I think it was a supported hike.

[Slo-go'en]

I sure hope you ment NOBO Jan 1, because SOBO Jan 1 just isn't going to happen. Even a theoretical discussion is pointless.

[Snowleopard]

Sleeping bag:
Well equipped teams have been evacuated from Baxter State Parks when it hit -50F. Most people recommend sleeping bags for the White Mts with true ratings of -20F or better, but that's with the assumption that trips are canceled in bad conditions and that the trip is short. After a week in a bag, moisture condensing in the bag will degrade its rating considerably. The coldest I've seen recently here in southern New England is -20F, or one night below -10F with winds above 50mph (at my house).

You can certainly do a short backpack in the White Mts with a true 0F bag and a tarptent if you avoid cold spells, but on a long hike that would be dangerous. In places, you won't have the bailout options that people have in the south in winter.

[Tipi Walter]

Continuing with the hypothesis, though, I'd probably go with a Tarptent Scarp, thought I'd lust after a Hilleberg Atko. I'd spend major bucks on the best 0F sleeping bag I could find, and carry an extra sleeping pad. And a white gas stove. With all that gear, it's not really UL anymore either--I doubt I could get it under 15 pounds.

I've spent several nights in the Akto and you just may not like it at all and find it too small. I'd go with the Scarp.

[Tipi Walter]

BTW, if you meant NOBO instead, you may find the German Tourist info relevant---

http://www.christine-on-big-trip.blo...-and-tips.html

http://www.christine-on-big-trip.blo...onclusion.html

http://www.christine-on-big-trip.blo...s-learned.html

[Malto]

Lets say you were planning on starting a Sobo AT thru hike starting January 1st. How lightweight do you think you could go and still survive? Would you go with a bivy? Small one man tent? maybe a four season hammock setup?

For the sake of argument lets just assume that this is a hypothetical situation and spare me all the comments on how absolutely terrible/dangerous of an idea it is...i already know that lol.

Can't be done, doom, gloom, death and destruction. But since you are a triple crowner you probably already know this.

i have given this problem a bit of thought, though slightly different scenario. I would abandon my tarp and go to something at least as robust as the tarptent moment. Much of depends on how you intend to hike. I am similiar to Garlic in the respect that use high mile days to avoid some of the worst conditions. Swami did this on his late season AT hike in the whites to get out of harms way of Sandy as it barreled through last fall. If the plan was to sit out some of the worst weather then I think you have a bit more flexibility. If not then you are into a tipi trip.

As far as sleeping gear, I would use vapor barrier clothing for sleeping and a bag or quilt setup that would take you down to zero comfortably. With a quilt I would also add a bivy for flexibility. This would also provide more wind protection in the shelters. The rest of the gear would be normal layering which you already know.

i think Garlics comments are spot on in regards to locomotion. I have done a fair amount of snowshoeing and it can be brutal in fresh snow conditions, agree with the 1/3 mileage. On more consolidated snow I think you can do better. I have done 15 mile days on more consolidated snow (vs 30 mile normal hiking days at the time.). I would expect about 1/2 mileage in those conditions.

this is an interesting hiking scenario. I think a good bit of luck (along with experience, fitness and will) would be required to pull it off.

Tipi,
why can't you get to camp and live in your bag till morning? I have done this on many winter trips and while the days are short, there is nothing to say you can't hike into the evening.

[Snowleopard]

I'm sorry, I didn't catch OP's triple crown. Even given that experience level, it remains a difficult and dangerous undertaking.

Here is Fiddlehead's SOBO winter trip, starting Oct 14, 2001 and finishing Feb 10, 2002: http://fiddlehead.wordpress.com/2010...empt-20012002/

On average, his dates are easier than a Jan. 1 start. With a mid Oct start and some luck and speed, you can miss the worst of winter in the north.

You should definitely read vftt.org going back years, especially some of the accident reports and rescues.

With a Jan. 1 start date I wouldn't expect a lot of consolidated snow till you get further south. In a low snow year, you might not run into a lot of deep snow till later. In Dec, Jan and Feb you should be prepared for -20F at night and some daytime temps below 0F, and recognize that in a cold year cold spell it can get significantly colder. You should also be prepared for rain and wet snow, followed by extreme cold and wind.

Travel in spring can be impossible, when 10' of snow is undercut by temporary streams from snow melt.

I like speculating about such an enterprise, but, mainly, what we have to do on WB with these threads is try to keep inexperienced people alive.

[Feral Bill]

As others have said, you need to be prepared for -40 degrees. There is no ultralight in those conditions. IIRC our packs were at 40+ pounds when we hiked in the Whites in deep winter, back in the wool age. If you are looking for a winter through consider leaving much earlier, to hit mid winter in the mid-Atlantic states.

[Another Kevin]

If you're contemplating such a stunt, you need to learn winter moutaineering from those that really understand it. Check out ADK Winter Mountaineering School, for instance: you'll most likely need to have completed their training through the level of 'Advanced Backpacking' (or an equivalent program elsewhere; I'm less familiar with the programs of other clubs). Their student handbook makes an interesting read and should give you an idea what you'll be up against.

[finish9]

If money was no problem try a Stephenson's Warmlite two person tent, a Feather Friends sleeping bag and a decent sleeping pad. My FF bag (with a bivy sack) is 10 degree and I have slept comfortably at -5F with no tent and plenty of snow. Go for it.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi,
why can't you get to camp and live in your bag till morning? I have done this on many winter trips and while the days are short, there is nothing to say you can't hike into the evening.

Because you just don't get to a campsite and immediately enter a bag. You have to set up camp, get water, cook dinner, clean the pot, maybe talk to folks, sit up and keep a journal,etc. In the morning you may want to cook breakfast and leave a butt cold -10F camp in some real world layers before sweating and removing.

The winter campers I have seen who do use their sleeping bags for clothing warmth are an unhappy bunch. I met one poor guy at 5,000 feet in 10F temps and he only had a bag and a bivy. By 5:30 it was dark and he was in his bivy for the next 14 hours. I laughed to myself and even took a pic---



I used to do all my winter backpacking as you say, with minimal clothing. 10 years ago I got tired of being butt cold all the time in camp and sprung for some overkill gear---Exped downmat 9, Feathered Friends down parka, WM subzero bag, WM down pants and booties---and it has made all the difference. Now staying out thru the winter months is 50% easier.

[Malto]

Because you just don't get to a campsite and immediately enter a bag. You have to set up camp, get water, cook dinner, clean the pot, maybe talk to folks, sit up and keep a journal,etc. In the morning you may want to cook breakfast and leave a butt cold -10F camp in some real world layers before sweating and removing.

The winter campers I have seen who do use their sleeping bags for clothing warmth are an unhappy bunch. I met one poor guy at 5,000 feet in 10F temps and he only had a bag and a bivy. By 5:30 it was dark and he was in his bivy for the next 14 hours. I laughed to myself and even took a pic---

Tipi,
not everyone is like you...... If the OP were to embark upon this adventure then he would be solo hiking just like 90% of my trips. For me on these solo trips I stop hiking and climb into the sack and go to sleep. Especially on the AT if the are shelters. And because the nights are so long it makes perfect sense to push into or out of the dark hours to extend the hiking day. And I can assure you that I am a plenty happy camper, or more accurately a happy sleeper. Now, clearly just like there are few out there that follow your style, likewise there are few as polar the opposite direction like me. But I suspect that anyone who would undertake a winter SOBO AT hike would tend toward my style over sitting around reading a book by candlelight waiting for the next blizzard to come, not that there is anything wrong with that style.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I would go with 4 season hammock setup. My current setup for this is: HammockGear winter pallace, 20 and 0 underquilts, stephenson warmlite bag.

Gtext bibs and gtex jacket, VB shirt, 2 pairs of latex gloves just in case, gaiters, balaclava, ski goggles

Probably vb socks just in case, 3 pairs of wool socks

down pants, down vest, down sleeves, 2 sets of wool underwear 3 pairs of glove liners, one pair of shells ... I get tired thinking of the list ...

traction: microspikes and lightest/largest snowshoes - actually I would entertain the idea of those hok-ski thingies as they are slow going downhill and therefore safer on the ridiculous AT trails of nh and maine but probably not enough of climbers on the steeps. The trouble is that even with largest snowshoe out there it doesn't work after dry fluffy snowstorm. You'll be sinking no matter what. Many trails in Maine are unbroken. New Hampshire, most trails will be broken or halfway broken. Vermont - no idea.

woodburning stove and alcohol stove, firestarters

I think my pack weight would be about 40 lbs for such trip.

[T.S.Kobzol]

These are interesting because I think regular BC skis are not totally practical for thru hike in Maine and NH


hoks-altai-skis-2.jpg

[T.S.Kobzol]

Sherpa Chief started around November SOBO. I met him in NH sometimes in December. His pack was over 50lbs but he was in good spirits. Even took side trips to some of the 4000 footers in the White Mountains. He shoule be beyond the Smokies right now, close to finishing up.