Another AT thru-hike attempt?

[Dogwood]

What's with ALL the AT thru-hike speed hiking announcements? I've NEVER seen SO MUCH talk about speed hiking and speed hiking attempts with ANY other trail than that which I notice surrounding the AT. It seems like an obsession with so many who just focus in on the AT. I'm going to step on toes with this statement but is it because I notice so many yahoos on the AT?

[Just Bill]

Dogwood- A-it's the most popular backpacking trail in the world. B-The record (on paper) seems do-able and invites, if not begs, people to consider it. C- The AT is clearly full of yahoos, every hiker is a yahoo. Some of them move quickly, most notably the fellow who set the original record. D-For the record- Josh Garrison, Scott Wilcox, Matt Kirk, and Me (working on it) makes a whopping 4 people out of the 2-4 million people who visit the trail each year. E-I purposefully titled my thread with a sarcastic heading, because it does "feel" like it's getting out of hand. F- Some of us can smell it- it's an old tree about to fall. It may last a few more years, but it's coming. G- Jennifer Pharr Davis- most of us are not manly enough to take her on, but there is this "other" record that you might notice next time you hit FKT. H-Gear is lighter and available- more folks have taken up ultralight (my opinion only- 5pounds is about 2MPD- cut down from 40 to 25 and see a 6MPD bump even if you don't want it) I-Jen Davis averaged under 3MPH to break her record, every track star who is too naïve to know better thinks that is turtle speed. J-You need to get out some. Running is super popular right now, as is backpacking. As it usually is during an economic downturn. The two sports are merging at their fringes and overlapping. Runners came to backpacking first, now backpackers are getting into running; creating hybrid badass folk's like Matt Kirk. K-"The Skurka/Odyssa Effect" (wholly unintentional on Andy or Jen's part I assume) Just like "a walk in the woods" inspired many folks my age and older to get out there, Andrew and Jen are exceptional natural athlete's who completed a thru-hike their first time out with little or no effort (relative to the rest of us)- just pure ability. Andy took his ability and did (and continues to do) awesome inspiring things. I think he got some bad editing from National Geographic and his message got a bit diluted/skewed. He moves fast because he has to and as terrain allows- but bad news for most folks- they aren't Andy or Jen. L-There is no reward, no prize money, only a personal achievement. Why the hell not? M- It also turns out all those runners who like to trail run, run into backpackers and say "That looks cool" With more "fit" people, the number of sub 4 month hikes continues to rise, as a result, the mental leap from 6 months down to 2 months is not so large as from 4 (or even 3) to two months. It's not that big of a leap. Start in shape: you cut a month off. Lighten up (and/or don't party too much): you cut a month off- suddenly you have a four month hike. N-Jen walked 2.83 MPH for an average of 16.5 hours a day. O-It's still just walking. P-Maybe you could learn something? If you suspend your skepticism long enough, you may find some speed hiker gear or technique could let you knock out your day an hour faster, seriously increasing your rose smelling time. (Speed hikers just call that taking a nap) Q-The "yahoo count" is definitely up, there are lots of unemployed folks (I'm laid off actually) on the trail "hanging out". Worry about them, not the four or five folks a year who try to walk 1/2 MPH faster than you. R- It doesn't affect your hike- if anything- it's one more "*******" off the trail faster. S- You don't have to worry about a Speed Hiker "dogging" you all day if you are trying to get away from them, really the one's to bitch at are the slow annoying hikers who always seem to put in "just enough" to find your campsite every night and talk from 10pm until Midnight when they arrive. T- The trail is still a pretty big place, it's only the forums that are small. U- It is an obsession for those of us pursuing it, but not nearly the obsession that devoting 15-30 years of your life to completing a section hike is. V-The Long Trail and JMT see more attempts than the AT. W,X,Y&Z- Wait until Matt Kirk beats it- then it will really get out of hand! Now you know your ABC's of Speed Hiking- next time won't you sing with me! (Singing is infinitely more enjoyable than the alternatives!)

[Dogwood]

ha ha ha I love it. Let's sing the praises of AT speed hiking.

JustBill, I think you are mistaken about my intentions when I started this thread. You've taken a defensive stance in favor of speed hiking which is fine but I wasn't intending to offend speed hikers or say it was wrong or right or something to that effect. I was coming from the perspective that it seems, at least to me, no other trail has more public announcements about speed hiking attempts than the AT. Although certainly speed record attempts occur on other trails it seems like it happens more on the AT than anywhere else. Perhaps, I'm wrong about that? I think you are right with A. That would have been enough of an answer for me from you but you went off on a diatribe in the defense of speed hiking which from my perspective wasn't necessary. However, I did enjoy you sharing your opinions about the topic with the ABC's of Speed Hiking.

I seriously doubt you know me as a person or as a hiker so you shouldn't make assumptions about me until you know those things. And why attack those who don't do speed hikes or who don't ALWAYS do speed hikes which I notice quite a lot from speed hikers? and voice versa! It's not warranted. You weren't attacked unless you consider yourself a yahoo! If you really did know me as a hiker then you would know I SOMETIMES do speed or speedier hikes but am NEVER in the habit of announcing them publically and even when I do I'm NEVER attempting a public record just a personal speedy best. It may surprise you that not everyone who does a speedy hike feels the need to make it public nor feels the need to do one to have their egos stoked by others! I hope you can grasp that.

Perhaps you are absolutely right but I wonder where you get this from though? V-The Long Trail and JMT see more attempts than the AT. I admittedly don't follow all the speedy attempts by all hikers on all trails but I'm just NOT noticing that.

[Just Bill]

LOL, this is the trouble with Forums (and typing in general)- no diatribe, no defense, no attack- it's all in good fun. I like to defend ALL hikers. I also prefer to take regular hikes, about 90% of the time that's what I do. 99% of my speedy hikes are personal too. Anyone chasing a record has to have a big ego- probably why we "announce". To want to break a record, you have to believe you are the *****, but to actually break it, you have to realize you're just a piece of *****. I'm definitely a yahoo. Speed hikers aren't any better than regular hikers, and visa-versa. I think if we all understand each other better, we can all get along better- that's the only reason to learn your ABC's. You may find if you read some of my stuff that I'm with you 99% on the subject. Sorry if it came off as personal, it wasn't; I just wanted to respond to what appeared to be a thread you started in response to the thread I started (although I fully realize that you didn't start it against me personally.) I am also a little fed up with folks who post and disappear, so I am making an effort not to be "that guy". I'm also smart enough to realize that for every Matt Kirk there are 10 other folks (myself included) who don't really have a right to say much, and at least one in five of those are total assshats. On the other hand 1 in 4 thru hikers fail, but nobody gives them a hard time when they announce their hikes. I also know there is a group of us out there who do want to legitimately discuss that record, after all; this is the best backpacking trail in the world: you could consider the unsupported "backpacker's" record to be the pinnacle of the sport. It's also a friendly record, you won't find many people rooting for Matt Kirk harder than me. White Blaze is the only place to discuss it, and they were kind enough to start a separate forum for this little fringe group in our little fringe sport of backpacking. As I mentioned, there's certainly some ego involved, but really- it's about sharing your passion with the handful of folks on this planet who understand it.

[Dogwood]

Nah, Just Bill my thread wasn't started with yours in mind. It wasn't started in response to anything you specifically said. However, I do think how we define speedy hikes and possibly why we each do them are different. I don't do speedy or faster hikes out of or for my ego. I'm NOT trying to compare myself with anyone else as far as their speeds. And, when I say speed it's not in terms of rate(MPH). It's in terms of how long it takes me to complete my entire intended hike. I get that done by hiking at a avg pace but by going long hrs. I guess that's close to what Jen's strategy was though. Oops, didn't I just say I didn't want to compare myself to other hikers? One of the primary reasons I hike is to consciously and intentionally let go of the ego. Can you see what I mean? When I say I do speedy hikes it's NEVER in an attempt to gain an all time trail record in light of what others have done. I'm not trying or wanting to compare myself to those other hikers like Jen or Andrew or Matt. And, in honesty, especially being honest with myself, I'm not the athlete they are. Attempting, even if I was to achieve avgs of 35+ mile days, would change why I hike into something negative that I wouldn't enjoy. I'm not a long distance backpacker because I don't enjoy it or am a sadomasochist! Didn't Jen say something to that effect accomplishing her record? I don't want to hike like them. I'm immensely satisfied with how I hike in my own little hiking world. I think that much is true for you too.

Some, probably quite a few, may look at the AT record to be the pinnacle of the sport/activity/past time etc but you must realize not everyone has that belief. When hikers start talking about backpacking being a sport it typically involves a stop watch. I don't exactly share that view but I happily contend - to each their own. This is one of the things I most enjoy about backpacking. Each can hike their own way, as long as it doesn't unreasonably infringe on the ability of others to do the same.

[rickb]

Just tossing his out there.

Seems to me that speed hiking is an individual pursuit, and can be appreciated on its own merits-- without regard to what choices any of our fellow yahoos have made. In this regard it is similar to a thru hike, a morning run or a visit to the Louvre.

But a record attempt is by definition different. It requires that one measure their own accomplishments against those of others.

Nothing wrong with that. We do it when we look to get ahead promotion at work. We do it when we decide on what car or truck to buy. Or when we lose pounds not for our health but to look good in the mirror. Its a big part of who we are.

That said, I think some part of me wants to deny that part of human nature even exists when we are out hiking. When people go out to set record and announce it to the world, its a reminder (to as small extent) that even on the AT accomplishments are not always an absolute, but a relative measure.

[Malto]

Within Bills ABC's there are a few nuggets that I believe explains why the AT hosts the most record attempts of the long trails. Definitely it is the best known and Wards record is within reach of being done vs Jens record which is just insane, supported or not. Second, compared to the CDT it is very understandable, since fist fights would erupt over who took what route and which is easier. Compared to the PCT, I suspect it is due to the more variable weather. Pick a year like 2011 and Superman wouldn't be able to set the record going NoBo. The AT on the other hand has a wider, more forgiving window.

I will touch on one other point. I had a conversation with one long trail speed record holder about the whole concept of beating a record. As interested as I am in folks that do legitimately attempt these, I don't have any real interest in doing one myself. Why? Because you would be hiking someone else's hike not your own. The only way I would ever set a speed record on any trail is if it was part of something else, not for the record sake. But having said this I also understand that others like the external challenge. Not my cup of tea but I can understand why one would do it.

[DavidNH]

Perhaps it's also because many AT hikers don't really like nature all that much and dislike solitude even less and just want to do the trail for bragging rights because everyone knows about the trail? Could also explain the near irrational fear of bears many hikers have ( not realizing bear attacks are exceedingly rare.. and how would they know since so many have never spent much time in the woods?).

[Pedaling Fool]

Perhaps it's also because many AT hikers don't really like nature all that much and dislike solitude even less and just want to do the trail for bragging rights because everyone knows about the trail?

Actually that describes the majority of thru-hikers. They don't like being in the natural setting, that's why they go to town every 3-5 days. They don't like solitude, that's why they stick with the bubble and love Hiker Feeds and shelters. And they want the bragging rights of being a thru-hiker, including the patch/certificate.


Personally, I don't know why so many fixate on those that speed hike. Many don't even know these people yet they know why they speed hike


I'm no speed hiker, actually I'm quite slow, but I know the feeling of pushing myself in other endeavors and there is something to be said for this. Maybe all you know-it-alls need to find something to push yourselves at and you would have some understanding of the satisfaction of that. Or at least you wouldn't have the energy to keep bashing people that do.

[Just Bill]

I think rickb hit the nail on the head- a record is just that- a standard set by others that one sets out to meet. Speedy hikes (doesn't matter if speedy means 15mpd or 40mpd) are personal hikes. I find my connection to nature to be deeper and purer when moving fast. My regular hikes are book reading, beer swilling, liesurely vacations with extra gear. My speed hikes are celebrations of my body, my gear innovations, and travelling with the land. @rickb- I am denying a part of me, transforming into an animal moving though the land swifter than I have a right to as a measly human from town, when I speed hike I belong. The OP was about records, and I should have titled my response, the ABC's of Record Setting. They are two different things. Millions of folks golf, and millions of them keep score, but not all of them compete for the masters- different deal. So how bout this; speedy hikes are personal, and deserve to stay that way. A record attempt (even a stealth one) must at some point be shared IF you would like to claim the record. There are several unclaimed records out there, including rumors that Ward's record has already been broken. The only unfortunate issue with these totally pure only in it for themselves record breakers is that you will never hear about them! As long as there is a record, someone will try to beat it. It may not be your thing, it just is what it is. I didn't explain it very well, but Malto is right, most of the reasons (good and bad) for why folks post/attempt are listed in there. They aren't all flattering, several of them are pretty bad actually.

[Just Bill]

Of course maybe I should have gone with the simple- The AT is the most popular trail, this is White Blaze, it's the AT forum, so that's why the announcements take place here. LOL. Fastest Known Times has a lot of information, but most of the records on there are completed ones, with occasional announcements. Also- it's much easier to say- hit the long trail, then post up that you completed a new record as (a record attempt) is under a week long. So you just go for it, and if you make it you announce you did it, if not then nobody even knows about it. A two month long record though...unless you use a SPOT you need some folks to help verify that it happened, so you really have no choice but to announce. either way- check out FKT- there is ALOT of people out doing this crap, most of them runners, but a few backpackers are getting into the mix. http://fastestknowntime.proboards.co.../long-trail-vt

[WingedMonkey]

Competition and records have their place in the world of organized sports, but both are out of place on the Appalachian Trail. Competitive activities, record-setting attempts (fastest thru-hike, most thru hikes, etc.), and similar efforts to claim superiority over one's fellow hikers have been deemed from the earliest days of the Trail project to be a serious degradation of the egalitarian and recreational (some say re-creational) values of the AT, not in keeping with it's primary purpose of allowing individuals to "seek fellowship with the wilderness." For this reason, no responsible organization has ever established competitive standard, sanctioned attempts to set records, or recognized records for thru-hiking the AT.

Wingfoot, The Thru-Hikers Handbook

[Dogwood]

THX to all for having a civilized discussion. I learned something from each of you who has posted. I intentionally posted this thread in the speed hiking forum because I didn't want it to go off on a tangent debating the merits or validity of speed hiking or doing speedier hikes which often happens although I have mixed feelings about it and share some of what others have touched on in their posts but please I do not want to go down that road.

I also agree with Rickb's post whole heartedly who made the distinction between speed hiking or doing speedier hikes and record setting. I find I'm mellowing out more as I've evolved in my hiking and as an individual hence I can appreciate record setting hikers, speedy hikers(which I can be), while also finding common ground with Wingfoot's, DavidNH's, and Pedaling Fool's opinions. To each their own which is one of the things I absolutely love about backpacking.

PF, I've literally met a couple 1000 of thru-hikers cumulatively on different trails/routes throughout the U.S.(not just on the AT). I'm not so sure about your contention that most seasoned thru-hikers(having done multiple thrus) don't really enjoy nature or the natural setting. I think it's more of what we're accustomed to. In other words, a good portion of the population doesn't live in close connection with nature hence they don't always deeply appreciate it or they experience at the margins of their lifestyles. But, once we let go of that conditioning and are willing to embrace more or see a larger world that exists beyond the concrete, steel, asphalt, electronics, living in boxes, driving in boxes, and spending large amounts of time in front of a box and are willing to allow natural settings and nature into our souls we can both as hikers and non hikers LEARN to enjoy it to a greater extent. Sometimes, that takes adjustment and time.

[Pedaling Fool]

PF, I've literally met a couple 1000 of thru-hikers cumulatively on different trails/routes throughout the U.S.(not just on the AT). I'm not so sure about your contention that most seasoned thru-hikers(having done multiple thrus) don't really enjoy nature or the natural setting. I think it's more of what we're accustomed to. In other words, a good portion of the population doesn't live in close connection with nature hence they don't always deeply appreciate it or they experience at the margins of their lifestyles. But, once we let go of that conditioning and are willing to embrace more or see a larger world that exists beyond the concrete, steel, asphalt, electronics, living in boxes, driving in boxes, and spending large amounts of time in front of a box and are willing to allow natural settings and nature into our souls we can both as hikers and non hikers LEARN to enjoy it to a greater extent. Sometimes, that takes adjustment and time.

I'm sure you know more hikers than me. However, I was simply remarking on my perception of the many I've met along the AT.

They go to town often, they love hiker feeds, they love shelters, they love slackpacking.

Now, I'm sure they love the natural setting of being outdoors hiking, but that doesn't mean they have a "connection with nature", whatever you mean by that. That's like saying someone that swims a lot has a special connection with water and all the marine life in it. I say not necessarily, it just means the swim a lot.


Just because someone hikes a lot doesn't mean they are interacting with nature. You want to interact with nature, give up the man-made objects, then see how much you like nature. Most hikers are just walking thru the woods, but always connected to the safety of society and they never have to look for shelter or food. Then they fool themselves into thinking they connect with nature, because they hike in the woods.

[rickb]

I'm sure you know more hikers than me. However, I was simply remarking on my perception of the many I've met along the AT.They go to town often, they love hiker feeds, they love shelters, they love slackpacking. Now, I'm sure they love the natural setting of being outdoors hiking, but that doesn't mean they have a "connection with nature", whatever you mean by that. That's like saying someone that swims a lot has a special connection with water and all the marine life in it. I say not necessarily, it just means the swim a lot.Just because someone hikes a lot doesn't mean they are interacting with nature. You want to interact with nature, give up the man-made objects, then see how much you like nature. Most hikers are just walking thru the woods, but always connected to the safety of society and they never have to look for shelter or food. Then they fool themselves into thinking they connect with nature, because they hike in the woods.

I'll bet of one asked thru hikers how long they stopped to watch the first moose (or spruce grouse, porcupine, etc.) that that passed during the day, the replies would be telling.My guess is that apart from time spent getting a photo, it would be very, very short. I'd also guess that ther would be almost no difference in the observation time between one taking 6 months and another taking just three.Just a theory.

[T.S.Kobzol]

seems that after about 3 weeks on the trail most trailjournals rapidly shift from watching wildlife to halucinating about hamburgers ;-)

[Cookerhiker]

Perhaps it's also because many AT hikers don't really like nature all that much and dislike solitude even less and just want to do the trail for bragging rights because everyone knows about the trail? Could also explain the near irrational fear of bears many hikers have ( not realizing bear attacks are exceedingly rare.. and how would they know since so many have never spent much time in the woods?).

Actually that describes the majority of thru-hikers. They don't like being in the natural setting, that's why they go to town every 3-5 days. They don't like solitude, that's why they stick with the bubble and love Hiker Feeds and shelters. And they want the bragging rights of being a thru-hiker, including the patch/certificate.....

I'm sure you know more hikers than me. However, I was simply remarking on my perception of the many I've met along the AT.

They go to town often, they love hiker feeds, they love shelters, they love slackpacking.

Now, I'm sure they love the natural setting of being outdoors hiking, but that doesn't mean they have a "connection with nature", whatever you mean by that. That's like saying someone that swims a lot has a special connection with water and all the marine life in it. I say not necessarily, it just means the swim a lot.


Just because someone hikes a lot doesn't mean they are interacting with nature. You want to interact with nature, give up the man-made objects, then see how much you like nature. Most hikers are just walking thru the woods, but always connected to the safety of society and they never have to look for shelter or food. Then they fool themselves into thinking they connect with nature, because they hike in the woods.

I'll bet of one asked thru hikers how long they stopped to watch the first moose (or spruce grouse, porcupine, etc.) that that passed during the day, the replies would be telling.My guess is that apart from time spent getting a photo, it would be very, very short. I'd also guess that there would be almost no difference in the observation time between one taking 6 months and another taking just three.Just a theory.

seems that after about 3 weeks on the trail most trailjournals rapidly shift from watching wildlife to halucinating about hamburgers ;-)

Based on perusing some trail journals and the tenor of many discussions here on WB, it does seem that (many? the majority? some? a few? most?) AT thruhikers hikers don't care a wit about nature. Hiking the AT is more of an athletic event than an interact-with-nature experience. I remember a few years ago one poster advocating getting rid of the bears because they interfered with his hiking. But for many of us, bears are not only part of the trail but something we hope to see.

But it's always dangerous to generalize about peoples' motives for hiking whether today or 50 years ago. Ed Garvey hiked his thru in 1970 and was the first to publish a book chronicling his AT hike. He included accounts of wildlife that he observed both throughout the book and in the appendices but what struck me was how much of his day-to-day narrative was as "social" as today's TJs. And this at a time when very few people thruhiked.

Regarding trail running /speed hiking, it's not my "OH" but I have no problems with it unless mobs of runners converge on one steep, erosion-prone stretch at once. But can it be worse than Georgia in early Spring or the Whites in summer?

[Malto]

Based on perusing some trail journals and the tenor of many discussions here on WB, it does seem that (many? the majority? some? a few? most?) AT thruhikers hikers don't care a wit about nature. Hiking the AT is more of an athletic event than an interact-with-nature experience. I remember a few years ago one poster advocating getting rid of the bears because they interfered with his hiking. But for many of us, bears are not only part of the trail but something we hope to see.

But it's always dangerous to generalize about peoples' motives for hiking whether today or 50 years ago. Ed Garvey hiked his thru in 1970 and was the first to publish a book chronicling his AT hike. He included accounts of wildlife that he observed both throughout the book and in the appendices but what struck me was how much of his day-to-day narrative was as "social" as today's TJs. And this at a time when very few people thruhiked.

Regarding trail running /speed hiking, it's not my "OH" but I have no problems with it unless mobs of runners converge on one steep, erosion-prone stretch at once. But can it be worse than Georgia in early Spring or the Whites in summer?

Actually, I would sayin reading trail journal the urge to get into town out weighs any other consideration. There are many motivators for thru hiking, communing with nature, camaraderie, athletic challenge, lifestyle and others. I know my top draw was the connection with nature followed by the athletic challenge. Camaraderie was a distance third going into the hike but it closed the distance with the other two by the end. But surprisingly the clear winning at the end was the simplistic lifestyle, something I could have never understood prehike.

[Jack Tarlin]

I find it more than a little amusing that every time I hear about some sort of "record" or "speed" venture on the trail, as we seem to hear about every year, it is usually one in pursuit of a hiking "record" that, by the way, no reputable hiking organization seeks out , sanctions,or actually recognizes.....I find it amusing that we always seem to hear about these people not seeking fame, recognition, press time, etc. No, instead, we are repeatedly told that this is an intensely "personal" challenge, a way to seek or surpass one's "personal best" as an athlete, whatever. Fine. This begs the simple question, tho......if these challenges and ventures are indeed merely "personal" quests, as we're told every year, then why does everyone in the hiking community know about them, both after they take place, and usually, long before? For such intensely "personal" challenges, they certainly seem to be well publicized......

[Pedaling Fool]

Based on perusing some trail journals and the tenor of many discussions here on WB, it does seem that (many? the majority? some? a few? most?) AT thruhikers hikers don't care a wit about nature. Hiking the AT is more of an athletic event than an interact-with-nature experience. I remember a few years ago one poster advocating getting rid of the bears because they interfered with his hiking. But for many of us, bears are not only part of the trail but something we hope to see.

But it's always dangerous to generalize about peoples' motives for hiking whether today or 50 years ago. Ed Garvey hiked his thru in 1970 and was the first to publish a book chronicling his AT hike. He included accounts of wildlife that he observed both throughout the book and in the appendices but what struck me was how much of his day-to-day narrative was as "social" as today's TJs. And this at a time when very few people thruhiked.

Regarding trail running /speed hiking, it's not my "OH" but I have no problems with it unless mobs of runners converge on one steep, erosion-prone stretch at once. But can it be worse than Georgia in early Spring or the Whites in summer?

Interesting points CH and you're absolutely correct about being careful not to generalize. I do speculate a lot, but it is very important to note that it's just speculation and I always judge people I meet based on my observations, understanding even then I'm not getting the whole picture.

However, I have to admit that I view the trail in large part as an athletic endeavor, it was the whole purpose of my hike in 2006. That's not to say I don't appreciate the other natural aspects of the trail, and I do very much have an appreciation and admiration of nature -- actually more of an intense curiosity of all things natural. But in my case it just seems to me that I can spend more time with nature just thinking about it and observing it in my wild spaces here in my yard.

To me, taking in a view or looking at wildlife is not really enough reason to thru-hike, any one that has done a long hike knows those things get old. And is it really appreciating nature? I think I find more appreciation when I'm not involved in an athletic event and no matter how you cut it that is exactly what a thru-hike is, even for us slow asses.

It's kind of like hunting or birdwatching or looking for rare plant life. How much of that can you do on a long-distance hike? To really appreciate nature takes a lot more than taking in a view, it takes observation and wonder, at least for me.

Thru-hiking is an athletic activity, sure you can take some time out to take in a view or look at wildlife, but don't take too long or else you'll miss Katahdin