New Hammock owner -- haven't been out in it yet

[Patrick]

Okay, my next question...

How much do I need to worry about the cold? I've read a ton about the under-quilts, pads inside, etc and don't know what to expect.

My current set up is a Cat's Meow 20-degree bag and a Z-Rest mattress cut to eight sections -- enough for my shoulders to butt. I've slept under a tarp for years. That does me comfortable down to pretty cold. I'm great at just below freezing with nothing on and down into the mid-teens with my thermals.

What I want to hear is that I can just throw my current set-up into the hammock and be fine down to around 40-degree nights. Am I being realistic?

I don't mind throwing an extra pad or something into the hammock, or switching to a wider one (although I'd prefer not to -- mine is perfect inside my pack now). However, if I have to start adding under-quilts etc, I have to begin to question the whole hanging thing.

I don't mind doing extreme stuff in the winter. I'm talking about three-season camping here.

Thanks.

[Hammock Hanger]

When it is cold hammock camping is not as lightwt but it is still "most comfortable". You do need a few extra things to keep the underside of you warm. JrB makes pretty light stuff though and it definately makes life in a hammock warmer in the cold. It's not that you need any extra clothing or heavier sleeping bag but you WILL need some extra loft underneath you. Once you get the right combo you will be happy, comfy and warm. Sue

[rpettit]

From my experience, you should be concerned about bottom insulation when the temps drop below 65. Lows around 40 will definitely require an insulating strategy i.e., underquilt, supershelter, multiple pads. Your sleeping bag adds very little insulative value to the bottom since because it will compress under you. Test out a insulating system before you go backpacking with it. I can use a 3/4 length blue CCF pad down to 60. At 40 I use a HH undercover with 1 1/2" thick open cell foam pad between the hammock and undercover, below that I pull the 3/4 length CCF pad inside the hammock for additional insulation. The type and amount of insulation required for any given temp seems to vary quite a bit from person to person.

[rpettit]

http://www.speerhammocks.com/Products/SPE.htm

Multiple pad strategy.

[peter_pan]

Your Z rest will not be wide enough...cold shoulders and hips will wake you ...plan more....BTW multiple pads are much bulkier and often weight more than UQs....see this picture, http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/sh...cat/500/page/1

Lot of options, do a search for prior discussions on this subject...

Welcome to the hanging crowd.

Pan

[Youngblood]

You don't have to use multiple pads with the Speer SPE. You can but you can also use single pads. It is not shown on the pictures, but there is an elastic panel on the back side to allow it to accomodate a range of thicknesses in its main compartment.

Relative to sleeping on the ground, it is not too difficult to sleep warm in a hammock down to the 40 to 50 degree range, as it doesn't take a whole lot of bottom side insulation. The biggest issue is usually the width of the insulation due to the tendency of the hammock to wrap around your sides. That doesn't happen on flat ground so you need to make some type of allowance for that when using a hammock. There are many techniques that will allow you to sleep warm and comfortable in hammocks in these temperature ranges and it is basically personal preference and maybe cost figured in as well. Peapods and underquilts work very well in this range of temperatures. It is difficult to sleep directly on closed cell foam pads, but if you have it contained in some type of appropriate fabric it will behave well enough.

When you start getting to freezing temperatures and below, you need to be more concerned in a hammock... they can be unforgiving on the bottom side. First, you need enough insulation and you need to minimize air gaps or accomodate them in some manner. Think of insulation around doors and windows, you don't notice you have a problem until it gets really cold. If you are familiar with sleeping bags, it is like the zipper draft tube and neck collar... you can do without them in warm weather bags but they are necessary in cold weather bags. The most reliable bottom side insulation in cold weather is arguably unbroken pads that you can lay on because there is just fundamentally less problem areas. The Speer SPE addresses this for the too narrow 20 inch wide pads customarily used for backpacking with a baffle arrangement for the side wing compartments that allows the insulation to make a tight butt joint with the insulation in the main sleeve in cold weather when you will want to fill the side wings with closed cell foam pads, this works very well as it has virtually no air leakage.

The thicker, warmer self inflating pads that have higher insulating values and closed cell foam can be bulky and or heavy to carry, especially at temperatures well below freezing. At these temperatures, a down air mattress starts looking pretty good. They are pretty light weight and low bulk, but inflation is somewhat of a PIA. A down air mattress is probably the warmest per weight per volume (packed volume or bulk) solution for very, very cold temperatures. Like anything else, there are tradeoffs and areas of concern; some of them are big enough to effect the girth of many hammocks such that the hammock may be too small or even somewhat unstable because the thickness of down air mats may raise you high enough in the hammock to effect its stability.

Youngblood

[sheldon]

" It is difficult to sleep directly on closed cell foam pads, but if you have it contained in some type of appropriate fabric it will behave well enough."

Why is it difficult to sleep on CC foam? I am getting in the mail today a JRB no sniveller quilt for my new HH ultralite backpacker and I have a CC foam pad 25" wide by 72" long from REI that I was going to try in the hammock. If I have the foam pad underneath me in the hammock and the quilt over me in warm weather, or me inside the quilt in cooler weather, does the CC pad still not work? What type of fabric will does the pad need to be contained in?

[papa john]

The problem with CC pads is they cannot bend with the curvature of the hammock, they will tend to bunch up. They will also try to slip out from underneath you. I found myself constantly waking up and trying to get the pad back under some part of me during the night. Getting a wider pad did not help and made the bunching problem worse. ake a look at Flyfishers website and the excellent research he has done on staying warm in a hammock. www.imrisk.com

[Patrick]

I bought another chunk of Z-Rest to try out on an upcoming trip. I tied two extra sections on each side of my current pad, making a cross shape a la SGT Rock. That gives me forty inches at the shoulder.

I realize that this is a whole new framework I'm camping with. Still, I'm reluctant to start adding quilts on the outside and all that. I realize I could probably work out an under-quilt and one for over top of me for about the same weight that I have now with my sleeping bag and pad. However, that's a world of work and expense I'd like to avoid or at least put off.

What about using a pad on the outside? I was thinking of using the cross-shaped pad (or two pads) and attaching them under elastic bands on the outside. Anyone ever try that with any success?

[Youngblood]

" It is difficult to sleep directly on closed cell foam pads, but if you have it contained in some type of appropriate fabric it will behave well enough."

Why is it difficult to sleep on CC foam? I am getting in the mail today a JRB no sniveller quilt for my new HH ultralite backpacker and I have a CC foam pad 25" wide by 72" long from REI that I was going to try in the hammock. If I have the foam pad underneath me in the hammock and the quilt over me in warm weather, or me inside the quilt in cooler weather, does the CC pad still not work? What type of fabric will does the pad need to be contained in?

Go ahead and try what you got and see how it works for you, it may go fine.

Closed cell pads tend to not let you slide around easily on them (too much friction, I suppose). In the process (sometimes it seems like a wrestling match) of getting yourself properly positioned on them they tend to scoot around against the nylon fabric of the hammock bed where you don't want them. Maybe you can master a technique. They are also a vapor barrier and if you perspire the moisture collects there and wets whatever is in contact with them (that can be a problem if it is your sleeping bag). If a rectangular pad is wide enough to cover your shoulders and hips it sometimes tends to buckle in the area of your waist because of all the compound bends.

As the old the old saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so there is nothing magical about any particular technique... many techniques will work fine. On the Speer SPE we selected 1.1 oz ripstop nylon for the fabric and made wings (for the shoulder and hips) that are segmented. This seems to keep the friction between you and a closed cell foam pad in check where it is less of a wrestling match to get positioned, does a reasonable job of wicking away any perspiration and provides a wider pad with relieve in the area where a wider one piece rectangular pad tends to buckle. It also has a few other features that might help, like easily adding and expanding on the insulation that you need. One thing I found on my trip this weekend is that I can lay my damp hiking clothes between the SPE and the hammock (I use a side entry Speer class hammock) and it keeps the SPE from moving around (I'm not sure if that is good or bad) and provides me with dry (or at least dryer) clothes in the morning.

Don't be frightened about staying warm in a hammock in moderate conditions. It is just something different, once you get some experience and understand the physics, science or whatever, you will figure out all kinds of ways to do it... it is still pretty early in the hammock insulation game.

Youngblood

[Just Jeff]

What about using a pad on the outside? I was thinking of using the cross-shaped pad (or two pads) and attaching them under elastic bands on the outside. Anyone ever try that with any success?

I thought I had a good way to do this, but when I made a little mock-up out of paper I realized that it wouldn't work. Any space between your insulation and you will cause a cold spot, and putting the pad on the outside will inevitably create those spaces. To remove those spaces, you'll have to pull the pad so tight that it'll be uncomfortable and restrict movement.

At least that's how I thought about it. If you find a way to do it, let us know!

You could always add a pad sleeve on bottom, or make a two-layer hammock and put a pad in between.

Carol put small elastic straps inside the hammock to hold CCF pads the size of the SPE wings. She lays her pad inside, then puts the wings into the straps. Total cost of 4 6" elastic straps, about zero if you get them from gear you don't use or old clothes. Time sewing them in...about 10-15 minutes by hand. Only thing is you can't move the whole arrangement around like you can with a SPE...but then you didn't spend the $40 on a SPE and carry the extra few ounces, either. I'll have pics of her setup on my page soon if you're interested.

[Patrick]

Ooh, I hadn't seen that SPE. I like that a lot. Might be just the thing to use with all the SilNylon I was going to use on a tarp before you guys got me on the hammock train. I used cord and a big-knot-and-loop system to connect my wings, but this system might be much better. Might even be able to get away with using clothing or something else for padding in the lower wings (I'm not very hippy) or something.

I think Velcro strips might be a better way to go to fix the pad on the inside if needed. That would allow for some variety in position if needed.

All right, I'm sold. I'm getting out the sewing machine right now. Pictures later.

What I thought when I got this hammock was, "Well, there goes all of my homemade stuff..."

Oh, one more question. Someone mentioned the problem of condensation if using a pad because it's a vapor barrier. I've never had this problem on the ground. Is there a difference because of being up in the air?

[Ratbert]

I just tried out my new HH for the first time about 10 days ago on a quick overnight to Springer and it was an eye-opening experience.

The temps were in the mid to upper 80s during the day, hot and muggy. When it was time to crash, I first tried using a hip length Thermarest inside the hammock; only took about 5 minutes of thrashing around before I tossed the thing out. It buckled and scooted and ended up everywhere except right underneath me. After ditching the pad, I pulled my summer-weight Liteloft bag over me like a quilt and dozed off, but woke not long after because the breeze had picked up. I was amazed (no, shocked!) at just how cold I was! Temps couldn't have been lower than mid 60s, but when they blew against the hammock, my butt and shoulders were downright COLD! Shoot, I wouldn't have been cold just standing outside in the breeze, so why so chilled in the hammock?

I finally scooched my bag underneath me and lay inside it, with it zipped to my knees and the chills were gone. The nylon bag and the fiberfill were more than up to the task of killing the wind.

Funny, in a tent I'd have tossed and turned quite a bit, even with a fully inflated Thermarest, but I slept soundly all night in the Hennessy. Sleeping on my back was great and rolling onto my sides was no problem. Solve the insulation dilemma and I'm sold! Didn't fully wake up until just before dawn, and that was only because a boar was snorting and rooting around close by!

I'm thinking that the Speer SPE is the way to go. Add a JRB underquilt with my down Montbell quilt and I think that I can vary the components enough to be quite comfortable, say from mid-March through October. Then in the dead of winter, it's back on the ground. I plan on spending lots of hammock nights on my deck as the weather cools to see just how low I can go.

On another note ... I'm not sure if other new hammock owners find themselves doing this, but everywhere I go now (not just in the woods) I'm looking around thinking, "Hey, I could put my hammock right there." Or, "Hmmm, those two trees would be just right."

[trippclark]

Solve the insulation dilemma and I'm sold!

Ratbert,

I have seen, but not used Ed Speer's SPE system. This appears to be a comparatively inexpensive solution. I do own and use a down Peapod for my Speer Hammock and a JRB Nest with my HH. With both of these I use a Speer down top blanket quilt as a cover layer. Both of these solutions are well worth the investment.

Tripp

[Ratbert]

Tripp,

I agree ... when I saw the SPE I thought it looked just about perfect ... innovative, solves the problem, but also plenty flexible. One of those, "Wish I'd thought of that!" products.

Question for SPE owners: Do they stay in place pretty well (I'm thinking of using my Z-Rest with the added foam wings from Speer) or should they be "locked down" somehow? I dunno, toggles? velcro patches?

[Youngblood]

... Oh, one more question. Someone mentioned the problem of condensation if using a pad because it's a vapor barrier. I've never had this problem on the ground. Is there a difference because of being up in the air?

Yeah, there are a couple of differences. First, on the ground things are relatively flat but in the hammock the pad curls and conforms more closely to your body. This reduces the ventilation, especially when you are on your backside. Second, in a hammock you don't have the pressure points that you typically do on the ground... so you stay in one position longer and don't get as much ventilation. Typically this happens when you sleep all night on your back. Now I'm an old man who has to have a nature break or two during the night so I tend to move a little more than a youngster who might just hit the hammock and not move until morning. I originally went to a two layer hammock partially to help solve the problem of 'taming' closed cell foam. I found the one layer (or regular) hammock was more comfortable for me and that techniques that put synthetic fabic that doesn't absorb water on top of the closed cell foam works equally as well at solving the condensation problem as they tend to wick it away where it vaporizes into the air.

Youngblood

[Just Jeff]

Patrick, I wouldn't recommend using silnylon for a SPE...it's not breathable. Regular DWR or untreated nylon would reduce condensation much better.

Trippclark, have you tried using the Nest on your Speer? I use it on my Speer more often than on my HH.

Here's the link with elastic straps to hold the wings in place (scroll down):
http://www.geocities.com/jwj32542/Ha...mpingWarm.html

Several other insulation options on there, too.

[trippclark]

Trippclark, have you tried using the Nest on your Speer? I use it on my Speer more often than on my HH.

Yep, sure have . . . works fine (although the peapod works better on the Speer, I think, because it is sized to fit it completely). On a couple of occassions when car camping (and bulk/weight is not an issue), I used my Speer Hammock with BOTH . . . first the Nest and then the Peapod around the whole thing. With this setup, I was TOASTY warm well below freezing without a bunch of layers of clothing (I was shedding layers in fact). Because of bulk, I would not use this for backpacking (a Peapod and Nest solution), but it was real nice for car camping with Scouts.

By the way, I am a cold sleeper.

Tripp

[Youngblood]

Tripp,

I agree ... when I saw the SPE I thought it looked just about perfect ... innovative, solves the problem, but also plenty flexible. One of those, "Wish I'd thought of that!" products.

Question for SPE owners: Do they stay in place pretty well (I'm thinking of using my Z-Rest with the added foam wings from Speer) or should they be "locked down" somehow? I dunno, toggles? velcro patches?

I may not be the right person to answer this since I am involved with the product. However, I will since it is a fairly new product and I don't know if anyone that has bought one is here to answer.

As you can see from the diagrams and photos, the product has a lot of flexibility and it is mostly what you put in it... it is just a shell. The design is optimised for cold weather where it has significant padding in the wings and main compartment. It is nice that way, especially with self inflating pads giving structure to it. Originally I had envisioned a seperate moderate weather version but after discussions and dog & pony shows with Ed Speer with various prototypes we opted for one product that included enough elastic in the main compartment to handle most anything (actually there are two sizes of one product). Ed felt that asking people to buy a cold weather version and a moderate weather version was not what we wanted to do. We wanted to keep it as inexpensive and flexible as we could. The function of the wings doesn't allow for spandex or adjustment, to do so would compromise cold weather performance. With a stack of pads equal to one inch in thickness inserted into the wings (easiest way is to use a silnylon stuff sack as a sheath to insert them into to wings and pull the stuff sack through when the pads are in place) it has great structure and the insulation in the wings stay pretty well put, also one section of a zrest stays put pretty well but it doesn't have the insulation that one inch of solid closed cell foam has. In moderate temperatures you don't need that much solid closed cell foam in the wings and they are lose enough to be problematic to some people. In moderate weather you can use unused clothing in the wings and that usually stays put pretty well or use a combination of a thin pad and unused clothing. We built protypes with snaps and velcro to close the wings but didn't incorporate that because in use it wasn't always a win-win situation and we were trying very hard to keep the cost down and the functionality high.

Youngblood

[Patrick]

Jeff,

Haha, you're half an hour late. I'll finish it up and try it out. I can use it as a template if I make it later in another material. Again, though, how come I'm okay sleeping directly on a closed cell pad, which seems like it would be a vapor barrier, but not on one covered with SilNylon?