How the heck do you eat 5000 calories a day?

[Snowleopard]

Maltodextrin can cause insulin spikes too. The way JB consumes it, spaced out three times a day during constant aerobic activity such as thru-hiking, perhaps the insulin spiking isn't much an issue.

For diabetics (and some others) this could be a serious problem. Maltodextrin's glycemic index is 130, double that of sugar, so more prone to spikes in blood sugar and insulin. It seems like this food system would be very unhealthy long term, maybe OK for the LT but maybe not for the AT.

That is my top secret beef jerky. It is a small butcher shop in the middle of nowhere. Beef Jerky is the wrong word- they call it slab jerky. After curing the slabs are up to 1 1/4" thick and the biggest slab I've seen was 2'x4'. (2'x3' and 1.5'x2' are more common) Can you imagine buying a piece of jerky the size and thickness of a quarter sheet of plywood?

You could use this as a frame sheet for a back pack.

[Drybones]

I plan on carrying some Whey Protein, 1 scoop = 160 calories with 30g of protein for my coffee in the morning for a little extra boost on the protein. I need from a 100g to 180g of protein so an extra hit a day may stop the negative flow of protein. Chocolate is good, vanilla is okay.
Rolls Kanardly

I put powdered milk in my zip lock with cereal, I wonder how it would work putting whey protein in with it, might give that a try, I work part time at Gold's Gym so I can get a 30% discount on it.

[Drybones]

This is a real good thread, learning lots here thanks!

...one question though, what are the approximate dimensions of a "cat hole" should one employ this 6,000 calorie diet? I gotta assume the heel kick ain't gonna get it for this one. Thanks...gotta go now!

That's why you need to carry a snow shovel.

[fiddlehead]

On our long, 5700 mile supported hike, we ate 1 lb of bacon and a dozen eggs every morning for breakfast.
Little Debbies for lunch along with lots of potato chips and then a huge supper every night: sausage, pasta, mostly.
Neither of us lost any weight. Averaged about 27 miles per day except for zeros.

If I'm carrying, it's lots of bear claws for breakfast, pop tarts and little debbies for snacks, potato chips and bean & rice (dehydrated) for lunch (and snickers) and dried hamburger with mac and cheese for dinner. Steak or big burgers when I hit town. Heaviest thing is the bear claws but, man do they taste good!

[Drybones]

On our long, 5700 mile supported hike, we ate 1 lb of bacon and a dozen eggs every morning for breakfast.
Little Debbies for lunch along with lots of potato chips and then a huge supper every night: sausage, pasta, mostly.
Neither of us lost any weight. Averaged about 27 miles per day except for zeros.

If I'm carrying, it's lots of bear claws for breakfast, pop tarts and little debbies for snacks, potato chips and bean & rice (dehydrated) for lunch (and snickers) and dried hamburger with mac and cheese for dinner. Steak or big burgers when I hit town. Heaviest thing is the bear claws but, man do they taste good!

On that note I'll go cook breakfast.

[Pedaling Fool]

I said this on another thread, but will repeat it here since the title is so relevant to what's common knowledge.

One of my most important lessons I learned from my hike is just how efficient the body can become at burning/using calories. Aside from developing an awesome cardio base I think a thru-hike is a special endeavor, because more than any other activity it trains our bodies to operate very efficiently, because we must ration our calories. I also believe it's something we should incorporate in our daily lives.

Forget all the talk of how many calories we need to do X-activty; improving upon what the body accomplished on the trail is crucial, IMHO

I'd never want to eat 2+ lbs of food per day on a hike (or 5,000 calories); doing so is a waste of an opportunity to create a fat-burning super machine. I generally ate ~1/2 cup of rice per day (with all my dehydrated foodstuff and dash of oil thrown in); two packs of oatmeal; few scoops of peanut butter; a few handfuls of gorp; and whatever type of bar I had.

I still very much remember after eating dinner at night having a very primordial feeling as I looked around for more food -- that's a great experience.


This is an interesting article on how to improve the body's efficiency at storing glycogen and burning fat. In many respect this is what we do as long-distance hikers; of course it's not sustainable, but that's what town visits are for http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012...-machine_31034


Excerpts:


"Torbjorn Sindballe dishes on how he turned his body into a fat-burning machine.

When Torbjørn Sindballe was a professional triathlete, he used the most cutting edge science to make himself the best triathlete he could be. His efforts helped him break the bike course record at the Ironman World Championship, as well as place third there in 2007.

The following is Sindballe’s personal account of how he attempted to make his body into a fat-burning machine, thereby giving his body the most efficient and limitless fuel available to him. It was originally seen in the Nov/Dec 2010 issue of Inside Triathlon magazine.

A good friend of mine once finished a six-hour ride in the mountains on nothing but pure water. No gels, no energy drinks—just water. And he was not out on a Sunday ride—he was hammering, riding hard on the ascents and flying down the descents. Can you do that? Or are you already thinking of how many gels and bars you would need to drag along for the ride?"

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"When we are very fit, our glycogen stores can fuel a six-hour hard ride in the mountains, similar to the one my friend took. But after the ride, the glycogen tank is almost empty. In comparison, even a rail thin triathlete stores enough fat to fuel five Ironmans in a row.

Fat is an almost unlimited resource, but it comes with two problems: The human brain is a sugar lover, and the rate at which fat is burned for fuel is too slow to support a hard, fast Ironman effort. In other words, your body fuels itself with a combination of glycogen and fat (and a little protein), with fat being the source of fuel that lasts but which cannot be tapped quickly enough to keep you moving fast.

The problem of your brain loving sugar can be solved by taking in enough carbohydrates during exercise. And the fat burning problem can be abated by teaching your body to use fat at a faster rate—thus staving off the depletion of the glycogen tank and allowing you to go faster longer. (Once the glycogen is gone, your body can only tap into its fat for fuel, thus forcing you to slow down or bonk.)

The easiest way to improve your ability to oxidize fat—turn fat into energy—is to train for long hours on the trails or in the saddle at a relatively slow pace. Generally, you don’t want to go much faster than your Ironman pace if you’re trying to stimulate your fat oxidation capabilities. While most athletes are well aware of this, there are several diet and training tricks out there that claim to increase the quality of the training stimulus these rides and runs provide. I have researched and tried most of these tricks myself while I was an Ironman pro and now have an understanding of what does and doesn’t work."

[cabbagehead]

trail mix with nuts
Suppose everything you're carrying weighs 10 to 18 lbs. I don't weigh my stuff. Carry 20 lbs of food. Carry less by dehydrating and cooking. If you've got the fanciest gear, there's no reason why your food can't weigh more than the total weight of your gear. I hate being skinny. I would rather be slower and carry more. Being sexy is more important than hiking longer distances. 20 lbs of oatmeal + sugar bars, a mix of nuts and dried fruit, and some fish will last 5 days maximum.

[rafe]

Wow, what an amazing thread. As a dedicated section hiker I kinda have to grin a bit. For me, losing weight on the trail is a feature not a bug. Dark chocolate is good stuff. Peanut M&Ms still rule in my book. That's about the extent of the science I've put into my trail diet.

[Malto]

I'd never want to eat 2+ lbs of food per day on a hike (or 5,000 calories); doing so is a waste of an opportunity to create a fat-burning super machine. I generally ate ~1/2 cup of rice per day (with all my dehydrated foodstuff and dash of oil thrown in); two packs of oatmeal; few scoops of peanut butter; a few handfuls of gorp; and whatever type of bar I had.

while this is a great approach to short duration hikes, something I do, but it simple will not work for long duration hikes such as a thru hike unless you have a extra belly full of flab. In spite of the articles claim of an almost unlimited resource of fat, a thru hike will hit that limit for most in shape hikers.

[Dogwood]

How the heck do you eat 5000 calories a day?

Muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha muncha............................................ .................................................. ..............

[cabbagehead]

Whey Protein

Is this isolate or concentrate. I heard that ion exchange filtration is often used to make isolate. Are the claims true that this changes the chirality of the alpha carbons (the ones the R groups are linked to) from the "L" form to the "D" form? Is the "D" form unnatural, and is it absorbed less?

[Dogwood]

Whey protein usually is not the same as whey protein isolate(WPI). WPI is arrived at by additional refining of whey so reputable sellers typically specifically note that what they are selling is WPI to account for the higher grade? and slightly higher costs. And, if the label says whey it definitely is not just WPI. Further, if whey is refined even beyond WPI it's typically specifically mentioned, usually as whey hydrosylate. Maybe, there are other whey products as well. That's a far as I understand and even then you should check me on this. Research your source.

"I heard that ion exchange filtration is often used to make isolate." Like wise here.

The rest goes beyond my understanding.

[Just Bill]

No this thread is not for everyone, but for those that it is for- great responses!

A few updates-
Malto with unsweetened powdered ice tea mix is becoming a fast favorite now that I've tried it. It may even be a lighter bit of flavoring than crystal light. A little citrus powder (dried lime, lemon, orange in the coffee grinder) gives it a little punch. Using chinese five spice or similiar also gives it an intersting spin and a refreshing taste similiar to russian tea. If I make the effort I may even add some electrolites and ditch/replace the gatorade.

Also had the chance to try the un-sweetened Kool-Aid and found it satisfactory. Cheaper than Crystal light by far but still not my thing. Good option though if you like it and you can find over 30 flavors at my grocery store so hard to get sick of it.

Think it was answered- but most, if not all commonly found Malto is derived from corn. You have to special order anything else. My understanding is that it is a longer chain molecule compared to straight sugar. It is also less prone to clumping or spoilage.

Drizzling a little caffiene in is also aides in fat metabolism if I recall correctly. (so the iced tea mix gains a slight edge for dual purpose use IMO)

I have found enough other ways to incorporate protien without the whey. As Malto mentioned/predicted- it gets hard to choke down long term and I believe Map Man mentioned the clean up hassles. It is hard to get to disolve in a reasonable timeframe as well. Good whey is expensive as mentioned so I use it selectively. I think I also over reacted a bit after reading the nutritional post/article/interview that was shared on this site. When I looked harder my protien deficiet was not as large as I had thought. Instead-

I have been making some more "cream" based broths. Two winners so far. Mushroom (Nido and powdered mushrooms in equal parts) and cream of tomato (Nido and powdered dried pasta sauce in equal parts). I find I get some acid reflux when eating my sit-down meals anyway and the addition of cream based broths adds just enough alkalines to curb that issue. Basically between breakfast lunch and dinner I am adding about 3/4 cups of nido now.

I have always enjoyed nuts. But in the summer heat or in storage I found they tended to loose thier crunch and grew mushy and tasteless. My wife brought home some Seasame sticks from trader joes and these have proved to be an excellent solution. Great fat and all the benefits of the seasame seeds and they serve as a sort of silica packet. I have been putting equal parts cashews, almonds, and sesame sticks together. Very easy way to get big protien punch and high fat in an easy to eat combo. Not been hot enough to truly test the combo, but I think it solves my nut problem.

My family also got into emergen-c this winter. I like it and will add a packet a day. I did find if you need a whey based drink that the orange flavor mixed with a serving of whey and 8-12 ounces of water is pretty good (cremesicle like flavor). The bubbles in the emergen-c help disolve the whey and make for a pretty easy to mix/consume combo. If you just need a small protien bump this seems like a good way to add it without choking on it or overdoing it. Expensive though.

Matt Kirk-
Remember that guy! He shared a tip I finally had a chance to try out and it solved many problems for me in one fell swoop. I bring olive oil to add fat, but find I forget to add it to meals half the time and don't like carrying a liquid. I also can't stand eating bars, especially after they have been mail dropped and exposed to any heat. But Matt mentioned his love of coconut oil and that spreading it on a bar made it taste like a DQ blizzard. Whatever thought I, but we picked up some coconut oil to try around the house and one day I figured what the hell. Turns out the man is still the man- it's like putting frosting on a cake. Suddenly the dry hard to choke down bar has just the right amount of moisture to make it palatable and the oil is very creamy and tasty in combination with nearly every flavor of Cliff Bar I have tried. It even makes the flavors I don't like palatable. 1 tablespoon adds 120 calories to a bar (250 for cliff) and makes a very good twice a day addition to my mealplan.

So I can once more eat bars (makes things easier) and I found a good way to get fats back in that seems sustainable from a taste standpoint. Not sure if this will be the case when the ambient air and heat leads to soupier coconut oil as it melts around 80/90 degrees or so, but so far so good.

The oil is also a great skin oil and cure for chafing. Works on the feet too and is easy to spoon into a meal if needed. Anish and Sai Kirk were both proponents.

[rafe]

I'd love to whey in on this discussion but for once am left speechless in awe of the study y'all have made of it.

[rafe]

How many of you good old boys have heard of Halvah? Probably hard to get below the Manson/Nixon line but it's amazing stuff and seriously yummy. Protein, fat and sugar. What's not to like? Here in the northeast, when you can find it, it's usually the Joyva brand. Great hiking food (not cheap) but starts getting messy in the heat.

http://www.joyva.com/8oz.html

[Pootz]

I eat as much as I can while backpacking and always enjoy the weight loss

[Just Bill]

while this is a great approach to short duration hikes, something I do, but it simple will not work for long duration hikes such as a thru hike unless you have a extra belly full of flab. In spite of the articles claim of an almost unlimited resource of fat, a thru hike will hit that limit for most in shape hikers.

I like the article and the point you are making PF, but also have a hard time converting athletic nutrition into hiking nutrition. Maybe a triathelete is the closest, but all althetics seem to be "event" based even when you count the training. They are just different. Ultrarunners seem to be a good comparison, but even they tend to take a week or more off after thier event. Jason Rubliard's book (never wipe your ass with a squirrell) had an intrequing section describing a similiar technique to this one and it makes sense.

You don't need to be Matt Kirk or Jen Davis. An average higer mileage hiker pulls a marathon a day for months on end with minimial or zero rest. Making a super effecient body makes some sense in training, but for the actual hike? IMO Matt lost a dangerous amount of weight with a similiar strategy to the one you suggest (3-4k cal/day or less) He was lean and mean when he started and clearly must have been canabilizing muscle or worse at the end. Pure speculation on my part but it seemed like he was forced to adjust his food strategy along the way just to finish.

I don't know you well enough to say- but are you a strong enough athelete that a hike, even what we would consider higher effort is not actually much effort for you? I'm not even a runner, so I am at full capacity doing it when I go. I gather you do enough stuff that 30 MPD may not be the effort it would be for me. Is that why what you are doing works? If you put in a record breaking effort would you believe it would hold?

[Just Bill]

A thought for others--
A lot of these techniques may not apply to an average hiker, but alot of the strategies regarding snacks and liquid calories would be of great benifit to those considering going stoveless. Of the 5000+ calories we are discussing, well over half come from options that do not require cooking.

[Dogwood]

Much above room temp my coconut oil goes from a complete solid to a combo solid/liquid. I don't know how that might play into your dersire to avoid carrying a lquid. It also goes rancid if old or always exposed to oxygen in warmer temps. At home it stays solid though.

[Just Bill]

Much above room temp my coconut oil goes from a complete solid to a combo solid/liquid. I don't know how that might play into your dersire to avoid carrying a lquid. It also goes rancid if old or always exposed to oxygen in warmer temps. At home it stays solid though.

I noted Captain Kirk stored his in (4oz?) jars and wrapped them with Leukotape. Looked like a solid system overall but I also believe it will likely liquify most of the time. I plan to experiment a bit with it to see if it is a palatable or useful in combination with the bars. I would think it would harden up enough to make it useable most evenings/mornings.

Have you tried it for skin care? My use so far has been limited but promising. I still carry a bit of gold bond lotion for my inner thighs and feet to prevent them from getting too tough. I prefer that to body glide or hydropel.