Are you OK with memorials being placed in the Three Ridges Wilderness?

[Another Kevin]

I wouldn't be perturbed if I understood why this was any better than flags at a cemetery, or on a street corner, or whatever. But this proposal just doesn't feel right.

I do come across memorials from time to time while hiking. I've paid respects at the monuments of Frank Layman, a literally fallen firefighter; of William Curtis and Allan Ormsbee ,who blazed the southwest approach to Slide Mountain in the Catskills, subsequently perished in a blizzard in the Whites in June of 1900, and whose ashes were strewn near the head of the trail that bears their name; of John Burroughs, who is second only to Muir in writing that reintroduced the world of Manifest Destiny to the harmonies of nature; and of Raymond Torrey, who, while he was not the visionary that Benton MacKaye or Myron Avery were, nevertheless blazed the first miles of Appalachian trail through Bear Mountain and Harriman, and whose ashes were given to the wind at his favorite overlook in Harriman, a short distance from the New York Long Path. I hope someday to visit others: Ernie Pyle, Noah John Rondeau, Daniel Shays, the list of people memorialized in the wilderness is long.

I've visited plane wrecks and abandoned family cemeteries in the woods, and prayed for the repose of those who lie there, some of their names now forgotten. And I know that some of the names graven in the rock at some of the Catskill overlooks - they have an abundance of very old graffiti - belong to people whose remains were given to the winds off the same rocks. Where I hike, therefore, memorials abound, simply because the places had a rich history before the woods were allowed to reclaim them.

Someday, I shall climb the trailless mountain where my step-grandfather disappeared, 73 years ago, and pay my respects to him in a place that, while it is "forever wild" under the law, is still forever his in a deeper and more abiding sense. If I do so, I shall most likely build a small cairn of stones, some short distance out of sight of the summit, and bury his name (possibly engraved on a bit of rock or aluminium, so as to withstand the elements for a time) within it. Someday, too, I shall visit the plane crash in the Vermont backcountry where fell the man who was my first real friend when I went to college far from anyone I knew; the hiker who first led me above the timberline afoot; the youth whose short earthly life ended on a foggy night mere months after we met, now forty years ago.

While none of these memorials has Left No Trace, they do not bother me in the slightest. They are placed on land that forever belongs to the departed. Those remembered left their trace indelibly in their having held the land and worked it before Nature reclaimed it, in their pioneering new routes and blazing trail, in their stewardship of the land, and in their very bones and ashes. In life they enriched the land, rather than defacing it. In death their markers silently cry out: Hiker, as you pass, remember me and do likewise!

For someone who does not have the same deep connection to a particular spot of wilderness, leaving a memorial in an arbitrary spot just doesn't feel quite right. The memory of our fallen warriors is sacred, and deserves to be upheld. Nevertheless, the laudable impulse to remember them seems misdirected if it leaves traces that are not theirs in land that we all are supposed to respect and leave undefiled. To me, it feels as if it would end by honouring neither their memory nor the land.

[scudder]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For those of you who are okay with this, would you feel the same way if Mother's Against Drunk Driving initiated a tribute hike where they left markers in wilderness areas to commemorate their loved ones? Where do you draw the line?

[johnnybgood]

Well, they've painted an American flag on the rocks at Lehigh Gap in PA, and another flag on a mountain near Bear Mt., NY, which I personally find a lot more upsetting than some small temporary remembrance.

Agree , and for what it's worth , here's another example ;
The trail was routed to pass by the Ottie Powell memorial which is decorated with new trinkets every year by hikers that pass by .

[aficion]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For those of you who are okay with this, would you feel the same way if Mother's Against Drunk Driving initiated a tribute hike where they left markers in wilderness areas to commemorate their loved ones? Where do you draw the line?

Replying to JK as well here. These Americans died overseas. Memorializing them here is not therefore somehow wrong. MADD can put up memorials at the scenes of the crimes.

[Train Wreck]

Replying to JK as well here. These Americans died overseas. Memorializing them here is not therefore somehow wrong. MADD can put up memorials at the scenes of the crimes.

Exactly, I just can't get all worked up about recognizing these men in this personal way for their service. They belong to the nation in a way the MADD victims do not.

[HikerMom58]

Leave No Trace is a joke. I practice it myself and would LOVE it if others did the same but others didn't in the past and still don't.

I hiked to Hay Rock, for the first time a few years ago, on my way to Tinker Cliffs. Hay Rock is ugly from painted graffiti all over it. THAT ruined "The Wilderness" for me. I'm over it. It is what it is - I don't care anymore because if I let it bother me, it would steal my joy.
A few flags is nothing compared to irreversible damage done at Hay Rock & lots of other places.

I like memorial flags AND shelters!

[hikerboy57]

Leave No Trace is a joke. I practice it myself and would LOVE it if others did the same but others didn't in the past and still don't.

I hiked to Hay Rock, for the first time a few years ago, on my way to Tinker Cliffs. Hay Rock is ugly from painted graffiti all over it. THAT ruined "The Wilderness" for me. I'm over it. It is what it is - I don't care anymore because if I let it bother me, it would steal my joy.
A few flags is nothing compared to irreversible damage done at Hay Rock & lots of other places.

I like memorial flags AND shelters!

what others do and have done is never relevant and shouldnt affect your own behaviour.leave no trace is no joke,nor is it a bible.its just a guideline.and if more people followed its principles, the woods would be a lot more "pristine"that shelters exist or privies or trails themselves exist doesnt mean that anything we want should exist there too.
what doesnt appear relevant is why these memorials belong in the woods at all.why not a memorial far more public?

[aficion]

what others do and have done is never relevant and shouldnt affect your own behaviour.leave no trace is no joke,nor is it a bible.its just a guideline.and if more people followed its principles, the woods would be a lot more "pristine"that shelters exist or privies or trails themselves exist doesnt mean that anything we want should exist there too.
what doesnt appear relevant is why these memorials belong in the woods at all.why not a memorial far more public?

More public memorials are indeed also appropriate.

[Starchild]

If there was some connection between these lands and the actual person that would make sense.

As it is it actually has a backfire aspect, invoking negative feelings, perhaps not at the person, but the cause, not so much for littering, but for advertizing. The wilderness is the place you want to get away from that (AMC should take note), and such a place it is needed in modern life. Such a place is also needed for those who morn the loss of a loved one, a break from it and not to be continuously exposed to it.

IMHO their approach is wrong in total and only serves to continue the pain of loss instead of celebrating the living and living life.

[Lone Wolf]

The wilderness is the place you want to get away from that (AMC should take note), and such a place it is needed in modern life. .

the ATC should take note also then and stop allowing more and more shelters and privies to be built

[peakbagger]

There was a recent thread on viewsfromthetop.org that discussed a similar effort. The title of the thread started by me was "when does a memorial become trash in the backcountry"
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthrea...ountry-setting

The thread morphed and drifted from honoring fallen soldiers to dealing with the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing. As the whites are readily accessible to Boston and fairly unskilled hikers it is magnet for well meaning folks to try to adopt various summits for memorials. Unfortunately most folks only plan for the present and what at one time may have a well meaning memorial rapidly degrades in an alpine environment and to those encountering it in its degraded state, it generally no longer looks respectful. Luckily most of the memorials can be removed and are as the individuals leaving them don't realize that "trash begets trash" and despite the best of intentions memorials become trash eventually. Most summits are visited far more often than folks realize and once one memorial pops up, others rapidly appear and the practice gets legitimized degrading the reason why folks want to visit these spots to get away from society. All of this is amplified if the summits in question are in a Wilderness area. If the well meaning folks truly want to memorialize a person, the USGS has a policy in place on how to rename a summit but it is intentionally a long process that fails frequently as general most summits have been renamed numerous times since the colonists co-opted the native American names that had been in place for an unknown period.

[HikerMom58]

what others do and have done is never relevant and shouldnt affect your own behaviour.leave no trace is no joke,nor is it a bible.its just a guideline.and if more people followed its principles, the woods would be a lot more "pristine"that shelters exist or privies or trails themselves exist doesnt mean that anything we want should exist there too.
what doesnt appear relevant is why these memorials belong in the woods at all.why not a memorial far more public?

HB... when I said LNT is a joke, I meant it's not happening. Not everyone got the memo or even cares. It's a reality check. I stated that I am a fan of & embrace the practice of LNT, myself. No prob. If LNT was/had been working, I would feel differently about this thread. It doesn't bother me at all. They can put up flags or whatever to remember the fallen... it's OK with me. I like that much better than seeing a discarded banana peel or orange peels.. at least the flags has meaning for someone else.

When I was at Charlie's Bunion, in the Smokey's, I saw rose pedals along the path leading up to the view. I was like... aww.. someone must have proposed or celebrated a special occasion here. Sweet. I'm over the LNT, in that regard.

That's how I feel.

[10-K]

It's not that I have so much problem with memorials. It's the precedent it sets that worries me.

At what point do you draw the line? Here in Erwin we have something called the "Linear Trail" and the city allows memorials. You can't walk 10 yards without seeing a memorial to someone who probably never even heard of the Linear Trail.

[hikerboy57]

HB... when I said LNT is a joke, I meant it's not happening. Not everyone got the memo or even cares. It's a reality check. I stated that I am a fan of & embrace the practice of LNT, myself. No prob. If LNT was/had been working, I would feel differently about this thread. It doesn't bother me at all. They can put up flags or whatever to remember the fallen... it's OK with me. I like that much better than seeing a discarded banana peel or orange peels.. at least the flags has meaning for someone else.

When I was at Charlie's Bunion, in the Smokey's, I saw rose pedals along the path leading up to the view. I was like... aww.. someone must have proposed or celebrated a special occasion here. Sweet. I'm over the LNT, in that regard.

That's how I feel.

im no lnt nazi.i have no problem with the memrials in the "wilderness". i agree with lw there would be far less trace if the atc tore down the shelters and privies and adopted a policy of dispersed camping instead.but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. i just question the significance of having them in the woods.10-k also brings up a good point about precedents, but should i come across one of these memorials, it wouldnt bother me, and i would respect it.

[aficion]

[QUOTE=Starchild;1813559]If there was some connection between these lands and the actual person that would make sense.

The connection is; these are American public lands and we are discussing allowing them to be used to memorialize those who gave their lives in American Services. Our country, and the liberty we enjoy, are a direct result of the efforts of folks willing to give their all to establish and protect it. If you find it difficult to get the connection, reality must be challenging for you. Enjoy the stars. The woods do not exist for the exclusive use of entitled backpackers.

[Rain Man]

As it is it actually has a backfire aspect, invoking negative feelings, ....

I ran across one of these in the past year. It was old, neglected, tattered, and obviously forgotten by whomever placed it there. Not at all reflecting care for the soldier named on the card, in my opinion, nor of the American flag.

Another thing that doesn't reflect care for the flag nor for the soldier who sacrificed for the USA being a nation of laws, is the fact that whomever posted it must have felt "above the law" to do such a thing, indicating disrespect.

My family has lost members in more than one American war. My wife's brother died in Vietnam. I felt a great sense of sadness, loss, and appreciation for that listed soldier's sacrifice when I read the card. Not so much for the act of littering with a haphazard, neglected and therefore disrespected American flag.

There's a right way to honor the fallen. The Audie Murphy memorial monument comes to mind.

Rain Man

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[Bronk]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. For those of you who are okay with this, would you feel the same way if Mother's Against Drunk Driving initiated a tribute hike where they left markers in wilderness areas to commemorate their loved ones? Where do you draw the line?

Good idea, maybe they could leave piles of liquor bottles as a memorial, or possibly leave a wrecked car at each trailhead. Seriously though, if you don't like the flag, just remove it. Its not like anybody will be standing guard over it. This is no different than people who leave bibles in the shelters or people who paint white marks on the trees.

[aficion]

I ran across one of these in the past year. It was old, neglected, tattered, and obviously forgotten by whomever placed it there. Not at all reflecting care for the soldier named on the card, in my opinion, nor of the American flag.

Another thing that doesn't reflect care for the flag nor for the soldier who sacrificed for the USA being a nation of laws, is the fact that whomever posted it must have felt "above the law" to do such a thing, indicating disrespect.

My family has lost members in more than one American war. My wife's brother died in Vietnam. I felt a great sense of sadness, loss, and appreciation for that listed soldier's sacrifice when I read the card. Not so much for the act of littering with a haphazard, neglected and therefore disrespected American flag.

There's a right way to honor the fallen. The Audie Murphy memorial monument comes to mind.

Rain Man

.

The Audie Murphy memorial will someday be a pile of rubble. Ozymandias comes to mind. That doesn't make it litter or impute any disrespect to those who established it. These memorials are clearly intended to be temporary, fitting symbolism for the lives of those given.

[Namtrag]

Just don't get why this is even being talked about. I saw two of these memorials and it really made me think about life and how fleeting it is as I saw the beautiful view.

[bfayer]

I understand people that believe this type of thing is inappropriate. As for me, like I said I am fine with them.

The reality is that no matter where you place a memorial someone will be offended. It is impossible in this country to memorialize anything without someone getting angry about it.

Even the memorials on the Mall in DC get people upset.

A beautiful spot in the mountains where we stop and enjoy the view and feel blessed to live in a country that has decided to preserve the place for future generations, is exactly where we need a small flag with the name of a fallen hero.

The connection is obvious to me. We enjoy the blessings of this nation because of the people those small flags represent, and without their sacrifice we would not have the view to enjoy.

I would much rather see a temporary flag than the long term damage of a fire ring or a name carved into a tree.


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