Another Cold Weather Question

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Some more "keep warm" advice needed: I went for a walk tonight to try out the winter gear I've gathered. It was 24* with a wind chill into the low teens. I walked 3.2 miles in the following: polypropylene mudondies, nylong hiking pants, merino wool socks, wicking poly baselayer, merino sweater, lightweight zipper fleece sweater, NF raincoat (shell), fleece beanie, acrylic scarf.

I was nice and warm and dry for the entire walk, but when I got home and started shedding the layers I noticed that the inside of the shell was wet...soaking...dripping (literally), and that the fleece layer was quite wet but only on the outside where it came in contact with the shell.

All the other layers were still dry and toasty.

Is this a good outcome, or if I'd been out longer would the moisture have seeped into the other layers? What might I have done differently?

[Bags4266]

The shell wasn't breathing. Condensation was building up

[Feral Bill]

The rainshell did not breath, leading to the condensation. If possible, vent the shell via zippers, looser drawcords, or whatever it has. I prefer a fully breathable wind shell to avoid just this problem. Also, you may have had too much insulation. Cozy warm--->sweat.

As a reference, many years ago I wore, when hiking in sub-zero weather, a cotton fishnet t shirt (now obsolete), a medium weight wool sweater (thanks, Mom!) and a 60-40 Parka (breathable cotton/nylon blend). I never got sweaty in any layer. Currently I wear a merino shirt, furry fleece (breathes well) and a breathable nylon anorak. If it rains I use a ponch and expect to get damp. Honestly, the old outfit worked better for warmth and moisture control, but was heavy and somewhat abrasive.

If you leave off either the sweater or fleece you may well be fine.

You are wise in trying out gear ahead of time, but of course you know that.

[Mags]

Your shell was blocking the moisture from escaping. Fleece is wonderful for letting moisture escape. In cold and dry weather, a windshirt vs traditional rain gear works great..or even no shell at all if the wind is mild.

More great info on shells in really cold weather:
http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/outerlayers/

Currently I wear a merino shirt, furry fleece (breathes well) and a breathable nylon anorak.

Looks like Bill's reply mirrored my own in many ways..and quicker too. FWIW, this is my choice as well for ski touring...even the anorak!

[moldy]

Good and normal outcome, and yes the moisture would have kept spreading. The reality of hairless warmblooded creatures wanting to keep out the cold and do heavy work at the same time. No high-tech clothing system ever invented will vent all the moisture you produce and still keep you warm in cold weather. The system you used is as good as it gets.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

My shell is a NF rain jacket....should I vent the armpits to reduce the condensation or would it be a better idea to ditch the shell in favor of an additional fleece...bearing in mind 20-25mph winds. I'm planning to try out a different combo on tonight's walk, so suggestlons would be great.

Oh....and all the layers are close-fitting (or snug)....should I be "loosening up"?

AND....is a light vaseline coating still the best protection against windburn?

[Teacher & Snacktime]

duplicate...oops

[nastynate]

While both hiking and running, I prefer to be cool if weather permits. So maybe drop a layer or two once you warm up.

[peakbagger]

Waterproof breathable is major marketing term that really doesnt apply to most outdoor activities. If someone is sitting still and the the conditions are right the clothes may breathe enough to keep from retaining moisture but if someone is active forget it. Most good shells have pit zips and ventilated pockets that help but with a pack on your back will still get wet. The layer approach works although managing all the layers is a pain. In winter I need to start out with a half empty pack so that as I take layers off I have a place to put them. I have a tight fitting baselayer but everything else can be unzipped and hang loose. In windy cold conditions I use a light weight balaclava, As I warm up I can roll it up but it works great when windy.

[Feral Bill]

My shell is a NF rain jacket....should I vent the armpits to reduce the condensation or would it be a better idea to ditch the shell in favor of an additional fleece...bearing in mind 20-25mph winds. I'm planning to try out a different combo on tonight's walk, so suggestlons would be great.

Oh....and all the layers are close-fitting (or snug)....should I be "loosening up"?

AND....is a light vaseline coating still the best protection against windburn?

Start with venting the pits. If that fails, see the various suggestions above.

[cjlusmc]

In similar weather conditions, and with similar clothing, I just take my beanie off for a few minutes to thermo-regulate. It's something you may want to try. It's a lot easier than stripping off layers. Might be worth a try.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Ok....I'll give the outer fleece layer a shot tonight and hold"s off on the shell (I'll throw a Frogg Toggs in my pack just in case the wind is too much). I have to have "shed-ability" since I'll be stopping for pizza halfway.

I normally walk around town with a light fleece and a down vest and it's perfect....still not sure why it's such a no no for the trail if I'm careful to keep moisture low.

Wish me luck....and extra cheese.

[Feral Bill]

Congratulations to all of us for a thoughtful, civil discussion of a a worthwhile topic.

[Bags4266]

Good luck. My best piece of gear which I carry in all seasons is my 3oz wind jacket. Very breathable. Let us know how ya did .

[Another Kevin]

I don't know about you, but I need a good bit more insulation around town than I do on the trail. Carrying a full pack and going up and down over rocks and roots and mud is just harder work.

If you have condensation problems, do something about them, because condensation will indeed continue to accumulate. If you have pit zips, open them. Unzip the vent pockets. Unzip the front. If you're stilll condensing, you're still warm, so take the shell off or get rid of a layer underneath it. I know that in my younger days, I'd sometimes surprise myself at how little I was wearing - nylon shorts over my baselayer at temps close to freezing, with my midlayer, my wind shell. my pants and my puffy all packed (or at least lashed to my pack).

The main reason I was wearing my midlayer when I was out with you and Snacktime was that I was spending so much time stopped. You saw that when I was moving and the Sun was up that I was just wearing my baselayer, sometimes a fleece, and the orange vest. And there was frost on the ground when we started out in the morning!

Taking off the beanie to cool down also works admirably, but unllike cjlusmc, I don't like that very much. My ears get windburnt too easily, and they will be hurting - with the skin peeling - for the rest of the trip if I have them exposed in cold weather for any length of time.

I goofed this morning. I wore my Marmot Zeus under my hardshell because the weatherman said there was a -2°F wind chill with the 10°F temperature. (And I had extra weight in my day pack because I was returning some borrowed electronics to work.) Guess what? My Marmot Zeus and my hardshell together are too hot to walk in with my full pack weight at -2°F wind chill. Good thing that it was just a mile and a bit, because the inside of my hardshell was soaked with condensation and my baselayer was all sweaty when I got to work. (I ducked into the men's locker room and changed to dry undies.)

That's what I get for replacing gear. (Which I needed to do - I looked at my gear rack, and none of my old winter stuff fits me any more - I was 40 pounds heavier when I got it.) The Zeus is warmer than the synthetic I used to wear.

[Drybones]

Every "body" is different and what works for one may not work for another. When I put a pack on it's like adding a thick layer. How fast you hike will greatly affect what you need. This past spring I hiked in the teens with high winds (25-30 mph) and wore nylon pants with no base layer, a thin wool tee, a 1/4 zip tee and a rain shell...didn't get cold or hot (except for the hands, couldn't feel them), but I was hiking pretty fast to get off the mountain and out of the storm. If I'm moving I need very little and at the first hint of sweat I take a layer off, I'd rather be a little cold than sweat and freeze later. If I'm not cold for the first 15 minutes I know I'm overdressed.

[pawlinghiker]

I hiked yesterday, it was real windy and about 15- 20 degrees.

I wore Capeline 3 bottom base layer with cotton shorts and merlino socks. Up top I Cap 2 top with a NF TKA 100 1/4 zip and my Patagonia R4 wind proof fleece. I was plenty warm, got a little cool at drink breaks... but a nice hot drink fixed that.

Usually need to take off my 1/4 zip but not yesterday.

Colder days a comin.....

[bfayer]

I think overall your layering strategy is fine with the exception of the rain shell. In winter staying dry is everything, so you really need to rethink the rain shell. Eventually the fleece would have wetted through and that can be dangerous.

I would really consider a hooded wind shirt if I were you. The rain shell is great to have for when you stop, but I would rarely recommend hiking in one except when necessary to keep the rain out. if not a wind shirt, then replace your fleece layer with a soft shell. I like the wind shirt as it offer a wider range of flexibility than the soft shell and is easier to pack.

[MuddyWaters]

The simple answer is you really wore too much insulation in conjuction with the shell for your heat output.

As other said, ventillating the shell well well would help
Or, take off the excess layers
Or, reduce your energy expenditure

Make no mistake, managing body moisture is a skill.
An important skill in winter.

Wearing a vapor barrier under your insulation, but over your baselayer, can provide rapid feedback, and keep your insulation dry. This is how one might hike while wearing down jacket.

[fiddlehead]

You won't be the first to shed the $300 North Face jacket and take the $29 Frogg Togg jacket instead.
Much better choice.

Don't believe all the hype.
The North Face is for wearing at the mall.
Frogg Toggs are for keeping you dry.