What happened to HYOH?

[MuddyWaters]

No backpacking trip can occur unless you use a camp stove to prepare food. With your new rule you're making everyone either pull dayhikes only with no overnight backpacking, or you're requiring all backpackers to eat cold food on a no-cook diet menu.

Nothing at all wrong with cold food. I eat 3300+ cal per day normally. only 600 is hot. I can easily go without that.

I LIKE some hot food. I dont NEED hot food.

The more people that share resources, the more restrictions there WILL be on land you want to preserve. This is 100% inevitable.

To mitigate it you need to restrict access, as well as control activities.

I dont want this. I recognize though that it will be so one day due to relentless population increase and pressure on public lands.

As sure as we began licensing hunters and fishermen, establishing seasons, banning market hunting, shortening seasons to ...a few days in places. There simply isnt enough resources to go around, in ever widening places .

The plus side is restrictions keep some people home that decide its simply not worth it.

[Slo-go'en]

Seriously? I think it's pretty straight forward. In fact, there are GIANT scary doom and gloom signs all over the Whites - pretty much at every trail head - and the Presidents too, that provide you everything you need to know. They read: "THOUSANDS have died here unnecessarily..." "The weather here is dangerously unpredictable and it can become violent suddenly even in good weather, and drop to frigid temps EVEN IN SUMMER."

You mean this sign?
Attachment 37722

[Slo-go'en]

SANY0088.JPG

Okay, that's better.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Great non-defense: I should "direct my ire" at Pilgrimskywheel. And by the way, I agree with Pilgrimskywheel on all counts. LOL.

Whoa. I just put a gold star on my refrigerator chart - the first of the new year! Muddy Waters: Your statement "As back country use increases rules Have to increase." makes me want to scream THERE IT IS! Total poppycock. That's the crux of my recent screed, and the source of my disdainful ire to begin with. Additionally, the idea that we have a God given right to go out and get killed in shared public lands, and that this is somehow romantic or uniquely American is complete balderdash, and the kind of empty platitudes proffered by the comfortable living who pass out participation trophies to the losing teams at sporting events. I find this the same sort of brilliant advocacy that rails against helmet laws in the name of freedom, while having never spent a single day with anyone that has suffered a completely avoidable traumatic brain injury.

[pilgrimskywheel]

[QUOTE=Slo-go'en;2115490]SANY0088.JPG


And there it is! Thank you. Seriously.

[Tipi Walter]

Additionally, the idea that we have a God given right to go out and get killed in shared public lands, and that this is somehow romantic or uniquely American is complete balderdash, . . . . . I find this the same sort of brilliant advocacy that rails against helmet laws in the name of freedom, while having never spent a single day with anyone that has suffered a completely avoidable traumatic brain injury.

Try to understand Abbey's position---We do have the right to retain what's left of our wilderness areas and so we have the right to be bear-attacked or lost or frozen to death. Without wilderness, without bears, well, we've just lost one giant part of the North American continent.

"Why this cult of wilderness? . . . because we like the taste of freedom; because we like the smell of danger." ---Edward Abbey.

"A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches---that is the right and privilege of any free American."---Edward Abbey.

“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
― Edward Abbey.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Try to understand Abbey's position---We do have the right to retain what's left of our wilderness areas and so we have the right to be bear-attacked or lost or frozen to death. Without wilderness, without bears, well, we've just lost one giant part of the North American continent.

"Why this cult of wilderness? . . . because we like the taste of freedom; because we like the smell of danger." ---Edward Abbey.

"A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches---that is the right and privilege of any free American."---Edward Abbey.

“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
― Edward Abbey.

Okay. I get it. As anyone who knows me will attest I've been engaged in high risk behaviors my entire life (Paratrooper 101st AB) - but 43 years later I'm still here. Touch wood. I'm not really sure that the anarchist, racist, eco-terrorist, captain of the Monkey Wrench gang and a proponent of vandalism and sabotage directed at the system we all now currently enjoy is a solid reference for your argument. (I'm not convinced he was a racist.) We're talking about a guy who'd likely dynamite the Fontana Dam after all - or at least advocate it. He was a great talker. I'm not sure any extremism, right or left, is of any redeeming social value or benefit to us as long distance hikers and AT enthusiasts specifically. I'm a right to die guy, and I hope to go out on my own terms - I'm just going to have the social conscience enough to not jump off Lover's Leap in Hot Springs and splatter biscuit face first into the AT to make a statement about my God given rights to do what ever the Hell I want, and everyone else be damned, because I'm so wicked free and the trail is mine to do with as I see fit. It isn't. We are guests in a special place meant for everyone to enjoy, nothing diminishes enjoyment like death, and I haven't been packing out my trash for 30 years to leave 260 pounds of a dead Boston Irishman in the backcountry for someone else to have to pack out.

[Secondmouse]

Sorry, but - okay, I'm not sorry: It's this attitude that causes mountains to eat hikers and misadventurers alike, and it's called hubris. I'm sooooo experienced I don't even need to carry any ________ . Or, as in this case sooooo experienced I do it alone! Hike, swim, etc., etc. You ever notice how everyone is always surprised, and nobody can figure out what happened because the victim was an "experienced" hiker, swimmer, hang-glider, flying-squirrel-parachutist, etc., etc.? I've read and watched everything I could find on Geraldine Largay's tragic case, because as a psychologist and AT hiker it fascinates me. I saw some YouTube video where a couple of hacks were conducting their own search and making a movie of it. (Terrible - and in wicked poor taste. Really so bad it's good.) It was chock full of pseudoscience and SAR quackery, and the would-be-hero kept repeating: "...it's weird because she was so experienced..." or, "...as an experienced hiker she'd do this..." never guessing at the correct, and almost unbelievable truth. Fact is experience helps, and is a completely relative and subjective term. Nobody knows just what they'll do when the poop hits the prop. But, here's a hint: if everybody else thinks it's a bad idea - it probably is. And, if everyone else has a life preserver on - just maybe you should think about one too.

no, it's not hubris. it's experience...

there are people in the world who could have easily survived the exact same scenario with the same or less equipment. the difference? training and experience...

you mistake trail hiking for survival skills. walking a path marked with white paint teaches you nothing about how to survive the conditions this kid encountered. I would expect any BoyScout, First Class or above, to know more about this than the huge majority of all the thru hikers on the AT...

[Secondmouse]

Of course, in order to gain experience you have to put yourself in situations which can go either way. Most of us come out of that situation okay and learn to never do that again, but some don't come out so fortunate.

no you don't. there's that other thing called training. can you train survival skills? you betcha. can you train for worst-case scenarios? ask kayakers? does a single one of them take a boat in moving water before learning and practicing how to roll? only the smart ones...

now, how do you train (and practice) survival skills? a good course in wilderness survival would include dangers of exposure, how to recognize the external conditions and personal symptoms, and most importantly what to do before the onset renders you helpless...

[pilgrimskywheel]

no, it's not hubris. it's experience...

there are people in the world who could have easily survived the exact same scenario with the same or less equipment. the difference? training and experience...

you mistake trail hiking for survival skills. walking a path marked with white paint teaches you nothing about how to survive the conditions this kid encountered. I would expect any BoyScout, First Class or above, to know more about this than the huge majority of all the thru hikers on the AT...

Agree. There are people in the world who could have survived this, and we did. Most of us by staying home - that's experience. That's training. NOT going is a choice, and on the fateful day in question it would have been the right one. I think if you review the 2 threads on the subject that you are echoing some of my sentiments in many ways. Fact is being an Eagle Scout was apparently of no value whatsoever here. I'm going to qualify myself further in case you missed it: I was a Paratrooper in the 101st. Airborne, a sergeant responsible for many highly trained and well experienced young soldiers in some cold mountainous places. The DMZ in Korea ('93') springs to mind, where temps in the Chor Wan were routinely 30 below zero. Not freezing was a priority to be sure. That's why I'm saying while tragic, this need not have happened, and need not ever happen again. You read the sign that says turn around underlined NOW - and you do it, and you live for certain.

[Secondmouse]

Agree. There are people in the world who could have survived this, and we did. Most of us by staying home - that's experience. That's training. NOT going is a choice, and on the fateful day in question it would have been the right one. I think if you review the 2 threads on the subject that you are echoing some of my sentiments in many ways. Fact is being an Eagle Scout was apparently of no value whatsoever here. I'm going to qualify myself further in case you missed it: I was a Paratrooper in the 101st. Airborne, a sergeant responsible for many highly trained and well experienced young soldiers in some cold mountainous places. The DMZ in Korea ('93') springs to mind, where temps in the Chor Wan were routinely 30 below zero. Not freezing was a priority to be sure. That's why I'm saying while tragic, this need not have happened, and need not ever happen again. You read the sign that says turn around underlined NOW - and you do it, and you live for certain.

no. I'm saying there are people who could survive the exact same circumstances because they have trained in emergency survival.

creating shelter and establishing an external heat source could have saved his life. a SOL emergency bivy, a piece of yoga mat, and a lightweight quilt could have allowed him to survive. a Jon-E hand-warmer placed between his thighs against his femoral arteries and/or hot hands on his neck against the jugulars might have given him a few more minutes of rational thought to figure out a way out of there. he was hiking, did he have a canister stove?

there's numerous things he could have done but was he actually trained and experienced in this, or did he think just because he had hiked X number of miles that he was prepared when everything went against him? knowledge is not experience.

but to get back to HYOH. there's a saying - play stupid games, win stupid prizes. you decide what games you play...

[pilgrimskywheel]

no. I'm saying there are people who could survive the exact same circumstances because they have trained in emergency survival.

creating shelter and establishing an external heat source could have saved his life. a SOL emergency bivy, a piece of yoga mat, and a lightweight quilt could have allowed him to survive. a Jon-E hand-warmer placed between his thighs against his femoral arteries and/or hot hands on his neck against the jugulars might have given him a few more minutes of rational thought to figure out a way out of there. he was hiking, did he have a canister stove?

there's numerous things he could have done but was he actually trained and experienced in this, or did he think just because he had hiked X number of miles that he was prepared when everything went against him? knowledge is not experience.

but to get back to HYOH. there's a saying - play stupid games, win stupid prizes. you decide what games you play...

Why do I have the feeling you're about to win a stupid prize?

[Traffic Jam]

I don't know much, but as someone who professionally and personally has seen people die terrible deaths, I'd rather die a quick death in the wilderness from stupidity. Just sayin'.

[pilgrimskywheel]

I don't know much, but as someone who professionally and personally has seen people die terrible deaths, I'd rather die a quick death in the wilderness from stupidity. Just sayin'.

Careful what you wish for. There wasn't anything quick in this case. Study hypothermia. Before there is no pain, there is panic that becomes terror, and then terror that becomes madness. It is slower and more insidious than drowning, while you have time just enough before you become insensible to reflect upon your final fatal error and the the incompleteness of your brevity on this earth. There is a tantalizing false hope. The slow dawn of the deeply disappointing realization that you've really done it this time. And fearful helplessness. And infinite loneliness. And a longing to be transported from that place and go backwards in time so strong it almost seems possible. As humans we are born with the gift fire in us, to experience it going slowly out is just about the worst possible thing. You come into the world red hot and with at least one other person, nobody should leave it cold, alone, and before their time.

[One Half]

As backcountry use increases, rules HAVE to increase.


The reason is to save our limited wild resources from effects of overuse.
Somethings thats already lost in many areas

Ive got no problem using a bearcan...if it saves one bear..its worth it.

I would support having to take classes, pass LNT field test, and be licensed by USFS to access backcountry on public land
I would support requiring bear cannisters
I would support complete ban on all fires, stoves, smoking on public land. There is zero need for it


Many people out there are just fricking inconsiderate morons, that really need to be kept off.

Many states require hunter education courses to get a hunting license. These types restrictions on backcountry use arent that far-fetched.

WOW! Really? talk about keeping things in the hands of the elites! It's hard enough for many to access the backcountry now due to cost of travel, etc. Let's just make it even harder. Maybe all those elites can privately fund the wild lands too since I won't be able to access them I shouldn't have my tax dollars go to support them any longer.

[Greenlight]

I think I'm finally getting some WB cred for firing up the old hot water bottle in the sleeping bag inferno again. That train really went sideways this time, didn't it?

Set - hut! The 'H' is for Hike. And so on. So: PYOP! Known killers: small planes, the Whites in December, trekking w/o poles, Whitney w/o crampons, hot water bottles, mountaineering, etc., etc. The sign says: "Ecotourism is inherently dangerous..."

[Traffic Jam]

Careful what you wish for. There wasn't anything quick in this case. Study hypothermia. Before there is no pain, there is panic that becomes terror, and then terror that becomes madness. It is slower and more insidious than drowning, while you have time just enough before you become insensible to reflect upon your final fatal error and the the incompleteness of your brevity on this earth. There is a tantalizing false hope. The slow dawn of the deeply disappointing realization that you've really done it this time. And fearful helplessness. And infinite loneliness. And a longing to be transported from that place and go backwards in time so strong it almost seems possible. As humans we are born with the gift fire in us, to experience it going slowly out is just about the worst possible thing. You come into the world red hot and with at least one other person, nobody should leave it cold, alone, and before their time.

Hell yes, I'd choose that to what I saw today at work.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Hell yes, I'd choose that to what I saw today at work.

I didn't realize that you started to work in retail.

[pilgrimskywheel]

WOW! Really? talk about keeping things in the hands of the elites! It's hard enough for many to access the backcountry now due to cost of travel, etc. Let's just make it even harder. Maybe all those elites can privately fund the wild lands too since I won't be able to access them I shouldn't have my tax dollars go to support them any longer.

+1. Yeah really dude! Thanks for addressing this.

I thought I was nuts (I am - but at least I know it!) that line "Many people out there are fricking inconsiderate morons, that really need to be kept off." Seriously scary. After you pay to take these many courses to qualify for the chance to get the license to go into the back country, do you get an armband for your uniform? Or, just the right to grow a really fierce beard? Talk about HYOH! Has anyone ever goosestepped all the way to Maine before? A LNT field test? What the...? I can't do it with someone watching! Here goes though: ahhhh. Ok, bury this, and carry out everything I carried in. Put wrappers in zippie. Did I pass? Did I pass?

Let's not get carried away Mr. Waters!

[pilgrimskywheel]

I think I'm finally getting some WB cred for firing up the old hot water bottle in the sleeping bag inferno again. That train really went sideways this time, didn't it?

You rock. Did you happen to catch Mr. Wizard at the lab today complete with time lapse photos? Killer! Even Bill Nye dropped by.