Heavy Thinking with Tipi Walter

[Tipi Walter]

My first solo hike was 19 lbs w/o food water.

This number is just part of the equation. Let's say you're out for 15 days w/o resupply. Add 30 lbs of food, 1 lb of water and ZAP you've got 50 lbs. Now add your winter kit and maybe a four season tent and oh throw in a couple books and extra batteries.

*Thread was split from Thinking Ultralight

[Stink Bug]

This number is just part of the equation. Let's say you're out for 15 days w/o resupply. Add 30 lbs of food, 1 lb of water and ZAP you've got 50 lbs. Now add your winter kit and maybe a four season tent and oh throw in a couple books and extra batteries.

Referring back to your earlier post, take what you want, I've done 15, day trips, without resupply and I've still had nowhere near 50lb, even with my winter kit. I've still been safe, enjoyed mysef and, despite what you may think about "the current Fast and Light hysteria' been comfortable.

Everybody has different philosophies and reasons why they backpack. You yourself admitted in a previous thread that only an idiot (or savant) could define backpacking. For me backpacking is, in part, defined by the journey, rather than the destination; quit simply I enjoy the hiking aspect moreso than the camping and that doesn't mean that my way is the right way or your way is wrong.

[Tipi Walter]

Referring back to your earlier post, take what you want, I've done 15, day trips, without resupply and I've still had nowhere near 50lb, even with my winter kit. I've still been safe, enjoyed mysef and, despite what you may think about "the current Fast and Light hysteria' been comfortable.

Everybody has different philosophies and reasons why they backpack. You yourself admitted in a previous thread that only an idiot (or savant) could define backpacking. For me backpacking is, in part, defined by the journey, rather than the destination; quit simply I enjoy the hiking aspect moreso than the camping and that doesn't mean that my way is the right way or your way is wrong.

My food load is always 2 lbs or more a day---ergo 15 days 30 lbs of food.

[Malto]

Tipi,
It obvious that you and I are very likely polar opposites in our approach to BPing. I admire the trips that you do and it sounds like you have your gear nailed down. But why do you constantly come on UL threads and declare that approaches other than your own are wrong? Or unsafe? Hysteria? Few people would enjoy doing the trips you do, even fewer would probably enjoy my trips. But different means different not wrong. I is starting to sound like Mags classic HMHDI.

[Kerosene]

My food load is always 2 lbs or more a day---ergo 15 days 30 lbs of food.

Note that Tipi is at the 2 lbs/day average because he tends to hike in winter, through heavy snow, carrying a 90-lb pack, and his metabolism is that of an 18-year old! Even around camp I'm sure he's snacking all day.

The typical AT section hiker (15-200 miles) of medium stature not hiking in frigid temperatures can probably get by with something closer to 1.5 lbs/day. The bigger you are, the colder it is, the more rugged the trail, or the farther you walk, the more calories you're going to need.

[Stink Bug]

My food load is always 2 lbs or more a day---ergo 15 days 30 lbs of food.

Exactly my point, that's you WANT. I wasn't disagreeing about your load, I was pointing out that this number nor the equation is the same for everybody, and that's perfectly fine. My food load, for example, is around 1.25 p/p/day and I'm comfortable and happy with that. I get that, for whatever reason, your dislike of ultralighters but I'm not the one coming in to the forum, specifically for ultralight hikers and disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing...

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi,
It obvious that you and I are very likely polar opposites in our approach to BPing. I admire the trips that you do and it sounds like you have your gear nailed down. But why do you constantly come on UL threads and declare that approaches other than your own are wrong? Or unsafe? Hysteria? Few people would enjoy doing the trips you do, even fewer would probably enjoy my trips. But different means different not wrong. I is starting to sound like Mags classic HMHDI.

My point is not to recommend carrying a butt heavy pack or to say my Hike Is Right but to point out how the word Minimalism when used by backpackers is a misnomer as the gear itself is maximus high tech while we sit at computers and drive cars and all the rest. And then we say how minimalist hiking bleeds into our regular American lives? I just don't see it.

[MuddyWaters]

Take only what you WANT.

I actually WANT less than I NEED

When you want more than you have, you think you need.
But when you think more than you want, your thoughts begin to bleed.
I think I need to find a bigger place.
'Cause when you have more than you think, you need more space.

[MuddyWaters]

My point is not to recommend carrying a butt heavy pack or to say my Hike Is Right but to point out how the word Minimalism when used by backpackers is a misnomer as the gear itself is maximus high tech while we sit at computers and drive cars and all the rest. And then we say how minimalist hiking bleeds into our regular American lives? I just don't see it.

Something as simple as a leaf or a drop of water is still more complex than we will ever be able to understand.

I personally am saturated with things and life responsibility. When I go out in the woods, I want to take as little as possible. I dont want to pack and unpack lots of object, fool with them, or keep up with them.

I want simplicity, which is elegant.

Some want to take as many "toys' as they can, and play with them, use them. Thats how they enjoy their hike. I am the polar opposite of those people.

We have guys in our hunting lease that really only want to have a reason to drive their $10,000 4 wheeler thru the woods.
I know bass fishermen that spend most of their day driving their boat around. Its a toy, they are only really looking for a reason to play with it.

Without the toys and gadgets, the activity becomes uninteresting to them.

[10-K]

.......................

[MuddyWaters]

Try to avoid getting into a pissing contest with Walter...

If you haven't figured it out, he takes a 70+ lb pack into the woods and generally stays in the same area, give or take.

That's awesome and I totally respect that.

But I'm talking about hiking a trail, from point A to point B. Hiking every day, where the main objective is to hike and actually cover ground with finishing at point B a prime objective. Not hike into the woods, pitch a tent, read a book and eat cheese for a few weeks while it snows.

I agree , its all good, ive got lots of respect for the guy just from reading his trip reports, Id love to do trips like that in winter. If I was going to intentionally go get myself snowed in for a week or two in subzero temps in an epic blizzard I would probably bring 70lbs too. Maybe not 70, but there would be a lot of contingency because your putting your life a bit closer to the edge, and thats where you really start to live.

I too am bored staying in one place, or even hiking areas Im already familiar with.
I want to walk, I want to sweat, I want to breath hard for several hrs per day, and then lay down to sleep at night and sleep soundly amonst nature. like we were meant to.

[Rasty]

.......................

Now that's ultralight!

[Tipi Walter]

I want to walk, I want to sweat, I want to breath hard for several hrs per day, and then lay down to sleep at night and sleep soundly amonst nature. like we were meant to.

Some people imagine I don't walk or sweat or have my butt handed to me on a regular basis by nutbuster climbs. To dispel this notion check out a recent trip report---

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/tri...30.html#128530

Something as simple as a leaf or a drop of water is still more complex than we will ever be able to understand.

I personally am saturated with things and life responsibility. When I go out in the woods, I want to take as little as possible. I dont want to pack and unpack lots of object, fool with them, or keep up with them.

I want simplicity, which is elegant.

Some want to take as many "toys' as they can, and play with them, use them. Thats how they enjoy their hike. I am the polar opposite of those people.

We have guys in our hunting lease that really only want to have a reason to drive their $10,000 4 wheeler thru the woods.
I know bass fishermen that spend most of their day driving their boat around. Its a toy, they are only really looking for a reason to play with it.

Without the toys and gadgets, the activity becomes uninteresting to them.

Everybody has their toys. Heck, I see backpackers with GPS devices which I consider totally useless dead weight and yet they love 'em. Just another toy. The $10,000 ATV and the bass boat are True Toys since they do not have to be hand-carried on your back. This simple chore greatly limits a backpacker's relationship to his toys.

My weight comes from several factors---the main one being heading out into areas which could be called wilderness where there are no resupply points and while carrying 20 days worth of food and a full winter kit. The food and fuel load alone comes to 45-50 lbs. And the only time I'm able to read a book in solitude and relaxation is when I'm out on a trip and so you add in the weight of 4 books and ZAP it builds, along with 32 to 44 ounces of white gas stove fuel.

The neat thing is, the books are burned and the food eaten and the fuel cooked and by Day 15 of the trip my pack is around 45 lbs---down from 80 lbs---and 45 lbs seems like a daypack to me and incredibly light. I still have 5 more days of food and fuel---actually 8 days of food as I like to have extra just in case I run into a problem and can't get out---so my pack is not as light as it could be. Plus, just my pack and tent together come to 16 lbs 8 oz---8 lb 10 oz tent and 7 lb 14 ounce pack. I like both and see no need for change.

So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? The corporate honchos came up with the Fast & Light campaign and the world of backpacking ate it up like the Next Great Snake Oil Elixir. The strangest thing is that now there are backpackers who don't feel genuine unless they cover 30 miles a day FAST and hump a 12 lb kit LIGHT. Question is, how many do it naturally as part of hiking their own hike, and how many do it after being bombarded and brainwashed by the Fast and Light hysteria? You know it's corporate groupthink when all a newb thinks about is starting out ultralight with a 12 lb kit. They are asking for trouble and don't even know the right questions. But it must be Ultralight at all costs. Weird.

[Rasty]

I want to walk, I want to sweat, I want to breath hard for several hrs per day, and then lay down to sleep at night and sleep soundly amonst nature. like we were meant to.

Some people imagine I don't walk or sweat or have my butt handed to me on a regular basis by nutbuster climbs. To dispel this notion check out a recent trip report---

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/tri...30.html#128530

Something as simple as a leaf or a drop of water is still more complex than we will ever be able to understand.

I personally am saturated with things and life responsibility. When I go out in the woods, I want to take as little as possible. I dont want to pack and unpack lots of object, fool with them, or keep up with them.

I want simplicity, which is elegant.

Some want to take as many "toys' as they can, and play with them, use them. Thats how they enjoy their hike. I am the polar opposite of those people.

We have guys in our hunting lease that really only want to have a reason to drive their $10,000 4 wheeler thru the woods.
I know bass fishermen that spend most of their day driving their boat around. Its a toy, they are only really looking for a reason to play with it.

Without the toys and gadgets, the activity becomes uninteresting to them.

Everybody has their toys. Heck, I see backpackers with GPS devices which I consider totally useless dead weight and yet they love 'em. Just another toy. The $10,000 ATV and the bass boat are True Toys since they do not have to be hand-carried on your back. This simple chore greatly limits a backpacker's relationship to his toys.

My weight comes from several factors---the main one being heading out into areas which could be called wilderness where there are no resupply points and while carrying 20 days worth of food and a full winter kit. The food and fuel load alone comes to 45-50 lbs. And the only time I'm able to read a book in solitude and relaxation is when I'm out on a trip and so you add in the weight of 4 books and ZAP it builds, along with 32 to 44 ounces of white gas stove fuel.

The neat thing is, the books are burned and the food eaten and the fuel cooked and by Day 15 of the trip my pack is around 45 lbs---down from 80 lbs---and 45 lbs seems like a daypack to me and incredibly light. I still have 5 more days of food and fuel---actually 8 days of food as I like to have extra just in case I run into a problem and can't get out---so my pack is not as light as it could be. Plus, just my pack and tent together come to 16 lbs 8 oz---8 lb 10 oz tent and 7 lb 14 ounce pack. I like both and see no need for change.

So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? The corporate honchos came up with the Fast & Light campaign and the world of backpacking ate it up like the Next Great Snake Oil Elixir. The strangest thing is that now there are backpackers who don't feel genuine unless they cover 30 miles a day FAST and hump a 12 lb kit LIGHT. Question is, how many do it naturally as part of hiking their own hike, and how many do it after being bombarded and brainwashed by the Fast and Light hysteria? You know it's corporate groupthink when all a newb thinks about is starting out ultralight with a 12 lb kit. They are asking for trouble and don't even know the right questions. But it must be Ultralight at all costs. Weird.

Tipi, it can also be as simple as some people like Chinese food and others like Italian. They are both delicious and awful depending on who's cooking.

[Malto]

Tipi,
nobody is trying to change you!

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, it can also be as simple as some people like Chinese food and others like Italian. They are both delicious and awful depending on who's cooking.

Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight. Heck, we all try to lower pack weight. My WM sleeping bag is very light for its rating. My Simmerlight white gas stove is lighter than my Whisperlight and much lighter than my old Svea 123. So yes, the kit is evolving and getting lighter. My 8 lb 10 oz four season tent would weight between 10 lbs and 12 lbs in its equivalent form from North Face or Mt Hardwear.

The problem I have is seeing REI and Campmor and Thermarest and TarpTent and cottage companies and countless interweb blogs and forums spew the Fast & Light mantra as if it's the only food in town. It ain't but the newbs latch onto it as if they are starving and can't eat anything else.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi,
nobody is trying to change you!

I'm beyond changing. My point is that the Fast & Light groupthink is in part an advertising campaign trying to change everyone else.

[MDSection12]

Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight. Heck, we all try to lower pack weight. My WM sleeping bag is very light for its rating. My Simmerlight white gas stove is lighter than my Whisperlight and much lighter than my old Svea 123. So yes, the kit is evolving and getting lighter. My 8 lb 10 oz four season tent would weight between 10 lbs and 12 lbs in its equivalent form from North Face or Mt Hardwear.

The problem I have is seeing REI and Campmor and Thermarest and TarpTent and cottage companies and countless interweb blogs and forums spew their Fast & Light mantra as if it's the only food in town. It ain't but the newbs latch onto it as if they are starving and can't eat anything else.

As someone new to backpacking I actually appreciate the Fast and Light guys. I know better than to think I'm ready to get my pack down to the weights they talk about (mostly due to funds) but it is a good reminder that you should be creative and find ways to solve problems that don't involve heavy, one-trick-pony solutions. Anyone foolish enough to be so absorbed with getting their pack weight down that they risk being unprepared is probably foolish enough to make some similar mistakes regardless. I'd say there is an equally risky trend of new backpackers packing in everything they could possibly want and end up ruining their trip (and back) trying to keep up with the weight.

At the end of the day backpacking is about knowing yourself and being responsible for your needs. That cuts both ways; taking too much on a trip can ruin the trip (and even be dangerous in some cases) just as quickly as taking too little. In my mind it is important that your opinion is represented as well as the fast and light guys'. It lets me know as a newbie that I need to figure out what works for me and ignore the 'hype.' For me I fall somewhere in the middle (as do most) but I like to read others' strategies and can adapt a bit of each into my own... Isn't that the point?

[Rasty]

Tipi, it can also be as simple as some people like Chinese food and others like Italian. They are both delicious and awful depending on who's cooking.

Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight. Heck, we all try to lower pack weight. My WM sleeping bag is very light for its rating. My Simmerlight white gas stove is lighter than my Whisperlight and much lighter than my old Svea 123. So yes, the kit is evolving and getting lighter. My 8 lb 10 oz four season tent would weight between 10 lbs and 12 lbs in its equivalent form from North Face or Mt Hardwear.

The problem I have is seeing REI and Campmor and Thermarest and TarpTent and cottage companies and countless interweb blogs and forums spew their Fast & Light mantra as if it's the only food in town. It ain't but the newbs latch onto it as if they are starving and can't eat anything else.

I agree there. I went from packing very light in the boy scouts (we had a great leader who taught minimal summer gear weight) to packing much heavier gear then have decreased the weight of each piece of gear as the wallet and experience allowed. I still use my Whisperlite when camping with the family + a larger pack for splitting up gear by each members ability to carry a load. In the last two years I have cut my pack weight in half while being more comfortable and warmer. Summer gear with water and six days food is under 25#. Add 12# for winter time for the same trip which has a couple of extra days food just in case plus winter clothing, etc.

I often go hiking with my youngest daughter. Her entire pack is her sleeping bag, pad, clothes, headlamp, water, a plastic cup and a spork. My normal kit has everything else. Plus I usually try to slip in a rock into her pack just for fun.

[Tipi Walter]

I posted my GearGrams gear list a few pages back. I tend to find, my first couple of days out my appetite actually diminishes so I actually carry less food than the norm (it averages out around 1.25lb per day, even in winter). I actually dehydrate and make all my own food so I can control the calories, salt etc and it's usually higher calorie density than, say, MH meals etc.

You're right about getting the food load lighter. It's possible if a person is willing to get more organized and not just throw food into a pack, although variety to me is the name of the game when it comes to backpacking food. So, my pack often has apples and grapes and maybe an avocado or a fresh burrito and a fruit smoothie for the first couple days of a butt long trip.

I recently got a TSM 5 tray dehydrator and this morning cooked up a bunch of spaghetti with sauce and it's all in the dryer getting ready for my next trip. Point is, if a person spends considerable time dehydrating at home he'll have a lighter food load. By this I mean everything he likes to eat in a can like chili or beans or soups (tomato soup) or butternut squash soup or what the heck ever can all be dehydrated at home.