Ticks

[Slumgum]

From my own perspective and experience from living in a black-legged tick infested environment, I believe it is dangerous to wait for the medical establishment to reach some consensus regarding how best to deal with Lyme disease (It is not called "Lymes" disease). IMHO human medicine in the US is driven primarily by fear of malpractice suits and profit rather than what is "best" for the patient.

It is has been concluded that ticks need to be attached for 36 to 48 hours to transmit the disease. So I find the best prevention is to look myself over thoroughly at least every 24 hours and remove any ticks you find. If I can't reach/see the ticks I have a friend help. I don't have to look very hard since these tiny ticks (and I do mean tiny!) cause intense itching after they latch on for a few hours. If I feel a tick has been attached to me for longer than 36 hours I do start a course of doxy or amoxycillin for a few days. I hate antibiotics. I think they can screw up our gut microbiome and cause great damage not to mention that overuse of them is resulting in wide spread resistance. However, I fear Lyme disease even more. Over the course of the last 20 years and finding hundreds of black-legged ticks attached to me over that time period, I think I have resorted to antibiotics on only two occasions. I will be thru-hiking the A.T. this year and feel that a pair of fine tipped tweezers will be mandatory. I don't expect I will encounter ticks on the trail that rival the numbers I see here in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Deer are the main host for these ticks and we are over run with deer.

Please note, I am not giving advice. This is just what I do and it has worked for me so far. Do your own research. Take your doctor's advice at your own risk.

[JPritch]

There's a lot of contradicting information out there regarding ticks, lyme, and treatment. I'm a believer in prophylaxis, but not in a single dose. There are studies out there that show a continued course of treatment for around 3 weeks to be way more effective. The "consensus" of a tick needing to be attached for at least 36 hours or having to be engorged has also been debunked by countless individuals who contracted Lyme and other tick-borne diseases even when removing a tick well under the 36 hour window, often the same day.

If you get bitten by a lyme infested tick, by the time you see a doctor and they send it off for testing, you're basically screwed. I'm not willing to take that chance with my health.

And that whole Alpha-Gal-can't-eat-hoofed-meat...well that would be like a death sentence for me.

[Slumgum]

There's a lot of contradicting information out there regarding ticks, lyme, and treatment. I'm a believer in prophylaxis, but not in a single dose. There are studies out there that show a continued course of treatment for around 3 weeks to be way more effective. The "consensus" of a tick needing to be attached for at least 36 hours or having to be engorged has also been debunked by countless individuals who contracted Lyme and other tick-borne diseases even when removing a tick well under the 36 hour window, often the same day.

Yes. There is a lot of conflicting information on this topic even within the medical community. However, if I were to follow your protocol and go on a 3 week course of antibiotics every time I found a deer tick (black-legged tick) attached to me, then some years I would have to be on antibiotics from March until the first killing freeze late in the fall. As I said previously, antibiotics come with their own set of problems and I don't feel comfortable taking them unless absolutely necessary.

Regarding the 36 hour window, I haven't seen the studies refuting that claim. As for Lyme patients making the case that a tick was on them for less than 36 hours and yet it caused Lyme disease, that is anecdotal at best. Unless that person saw it attach and allowed it to remain in place for an interval of less than 36 hours only to find that it caused Lyme disease ... and that would be a pretty idiotic thing to do.

I agree with you that, essentially, it should be assumed that every tick you find attached to your body is a carrier of Borrelia (The Lyme disease organism) and waiting for the medical community to churn through their protocols could doom you to a protracted illness. That said, I still hold that prompt removal of deer ticks on a daily basis is a rational approach to prevention. It has worked for my entire family and we are surrounded by deer infested forest in a county with many, many cases of Lyme disease.

[stephanD]

Best way dealing with ticks is prevention. When i'm hiking, i probably look like an alien next to those youngish thru hikers with their bandanas and shorts. I wear a wide brim hat, long pants, and gaiters. My only compromise is tee shirts, i just can't hike with long sleeves shirts. So i check my arms and armpits every evening for ticks. All my hiking gear, with the exception of underwear and liner socks, is treated with permethrin, both commercially with insectShield and spray at home before leaving. on the trail, i never bushwack, unless i don't have a choice and i never stealth camp.

[rickb]

Yes. There is a lot of conflicting information on this topic even within the medical community.

One one thing I am sure we can all agree on — best to have a good understanding of options and risk factors, and have plan to deal with different scenarios (or not deal with it, if that is your choice) before you find an embedded tick.

Figuring out your preferred solution is hard enough on your way to work on a Monday morning, much more when you are out hiking. Good to know when the odds are on your side, and not to worry when you shouldn’t, too.

Even if you have easy access to a physician, when it comes to ticks, probably best not to assume he will have all the best answers in your moment of need.

And as the Boy Scout motto says, be prepared.

The money I spent on one of several sets I keep with special tweezers, lighted magnifying glass and that wonderful “tick twister” sure felt like a good investment with my most recent tick.

[JPritch]

Just gotta say, this has been a great discussion on the topic!

[FreeGoldRush]

It is has been concluded that ticks need to be attached for 36 to 48 hours to transmit the disease.

deer are the main host for these ticks....

Both of these statements are frequently repeated but I'm fairly sure they are untrue. Can you reference a study for either?

1) Reaearchers now believe ticks can transfer bacteria very quickly. I can post a link if you like, but no doubt opinions will vary on this.

2) Mice are the primary host for ticks. One thing that has worked for me on property we have with ticks is to soak cotton balls in permethrin. Place them in the cardboard leftover from a roll of toilet paper. Distribute around property. Mice use the cotton for nesting. Your permethrin soaked cotton will ensure those mice don't have ticks, and therefore will not spread them the next spring/summer.

Also keep in mind that ticks spread many different kinds of bacteria that will give you problems. Lyme is just one.

[IslandPete]

I have a daughter with Lyme. In my opinion, the question between taking antibiotics for a day or two after a tick bite, which may not have had Lyme, and which antibiotics may not address, vs possibly getting Lyme that you may have prevented, is a no brainer. Lyme is so bad compared to taking an antibiotic you may not need that it’s not worth talking about. Studies I’ve read, and I’ve read a lot, suggest that if you get bitten, a day or two of antibiotics while the bacteria is in your bloodstream is effective. I took doxy with me on our hike. I got bit and took two days. I didn’t get Lyme, which proves nothing, but I’ve seen Lyme affect a person, and would do anything that might possibly help prevent it. And toward prevention, everything my wife and I wore was treated with permethrin. I wore, as did my wife, compression type underwear, which we treated. Finding a tick on your ams or legs is pretty easy. Finding one on your back or torso with a friend is also doable. Finding one up in your junk or butt crack, on the trail, in the dark, when you may not have showered in 4 or 5 days is harder. A tick that has to squeeze between permethrin treated tight underwear wont make it. My $.02...

[MuddyWaters]

Few people will miss a bloated tick on them at night if they check.

Its the tiny nymphs you can barely see that are the bigger issue. At least imo. The ones you dont know bit you.

[Mother Natures Son]

What about good old Deet? This was (Or is.) the age old stand by to prevent ticks. Go to almost any drug store near the trail and you'll find a host of products with some level of Deet in it. So is it still a good thing to use it before you go out into the woods or not?

[FreeGoldRush]

What about good old Deet? This was (Or is.) the age old stand by to prevent ticks. Go to almost any drug store near the trail and you'll find a host of products with some level of Deet in it. So is it still a good thing to use it before you go out into the woods or not?

It is not practical to keep the entire surface of your skin covered in deet for the length of a thru hike, or even a day. Maybe use it at some points, but treating all your clothing with permethrin is priceless. It's easy and it works.

[MtDoraDave]

Yes, deet is what most agree works best on your skin. But it washes off or sweats off, and needs to be reapplied regularly.
Treating all my clothing, backpack, and sleeping bag with permethrin has kept ticks and most other insects off me.
It seems to work quite well as an insect repellent.
.
I tend to wear the thin nylon convertible pants long after most people have switched to shorts because the mild temporary discomfort of being warm outweighs the potential negative aspects of tick born illnesses.
.
For when it's too hot for pants, I wear Ryno Skins, a very thin, tightly woven pair of leggings - also treated with permethrin - that wicks sweat like athletic clothing and is therefore not hot.

[Slumgum]

Both of these statements are frequently repeated but I'm fairly sure they are untrue. Can you reference a study for either?

1) Reaearchers now believe ticks can transfer bacteria very quickly. I can post a link if you like, but no doubt opinions will vary on this.

2) Mice are the primary host for ticks. One thing that has worked for me on property we have with ticks is to soak cotton balls in permethrin. Place them in the cardboard leftover from a roll of toilet paper. Distribute around property. Mice use the cotton for nesting. Your permethrin soaked cotton will ensure those mice don't have ticks, and therefore will not spread them the next spring/summer.

Also keep in mind that ticks spread many different kinds of bacteria that will give you problems. Lyme is just one.

The statements you are "fairly sure" to be untrue: 1.) that deer ticks (black-legged ticks) need to be attached 36 to 48 hours to transmit the Lyme disease organism. 2.)Deer are the main host for deer ticks.

1.)The CDC agrees with me according to their website. There are few absolutes in biology and I am sure there are exceptions to the rule. My own personal experience is not a "study" but I have found the statement to be true having lived in a tick infested/high Lyme incidence environment for years.

2.)I have found black-legged ticks on raccoons, groundhogs, chickens, cats, and me. I don't doubt they are found on mice. Perhaps deer are not the primary host, but there must be some reason they are called "deer ticks". If I am wrong on that I accept the correction. It is a trivial point.

I would not criticize anyone for taking a medication if they think it might prevent a disease as in the case of Island Pete. However, living in a region where ticks/Lyme disease are endemic, it is ludicrous for me to take antibiotics every time I pull a tick off my body(as some would suggest) because I would be on them for months at a time. I have survived free of Lyme disease. Coincidence? Luck? Call it what you want. It is not a "study". So, yes, cover up; treat clothing with permethrin; bring tweezers to pull ticks every 24 hours, etc. But popping antibiotics every time I pull a deer tick ... not for me.

[Marta]

I have a daughter with Lyme. In my opinion, the question between taking antibiotics for a day or two after a tick bite, which may not have had Lyme, and which antibiotics may not address, vs possibly getting Lyme that you may have prevented, is a no brainer. Lyme is so bad compared to taking an antibiotic you may not need that it’s not worth talking about. Studies I’ve read, and I’ve read a lot, suggest that if you get bitten, a day or two of antibiotics while the bacteria is in your bloodstream is effective. I took doxy with me on our hike. I got bit and took two days. I didn’t get Lyme, which proves nothing, but I’ve seen Lyme affect a person, and would do anything that might possibly help prevent it. And toward prevention, everything my wife and I wore was treated with permethrin. I wore, as did my wife, compression type underwear, which we treated. Finding a tick on your ams or legs is pretty easy. Finding one on your back or torso with a friend is also doable. Finding one up in your junk or butt crack, on the trail, in the dark, when you may not have showered in 4 or 5 days is harder. A tick that has to squeeze between permethrin treated tight underwear wont make it. My $.02...

I'm with you, Pete. We have an adult daughter who probably had Lyme for about 25 years before it was finally diagnosed in 2017. Two years of treatment later, she is unable to work, or function on her own. For about 20 years she had a collection of weird symptoms, but was strong and functioned normally. Then about six years ago she was in a car accident. (Drunken, driver hit her car hard enough to deploy the air bag.) That started a cascade of effects that have left her a complete mess. What she has been told is that the spirochetes colonize damaged soft tissue. When she was injured, the infection exploded. Her immune system collapsed. With that came some co-infections that are at least as debilitating as the Lyme itself.

I'll say that I am constantly meeting other people, particularly hikers, who have mysterious symptoms that happen to be some of the symptoms our daughter has suffered. This past Monday evening I was talking to a woman here in Flagstaff who has received a diagnosis of a Parkinson-related condition of unknown origin, with a prognosis of dementia and early death. Her main symptom is a feeling like an electric charge that builds up in her brain. That was our daughter's first and longest-running symptom of the neuro-Lyme. The woman I was talking to said she'd had Lyme a number of years ago, but it was treated and supposedly cured. If it were me or my family, I'd pursue that avenue a little harder.

A neighbor of ours in Montana said his brother in Minnesota has had Lyme four times. Has he really been infected four different times? Or was he treated according to the CDC and insurance company protocols that say to take antibiotics for a month. Then you wait a while, and the infections comes roaring back.

[fastfoxengineering]

I got treated for Lyme at 22. I had never been so sick in my life. The antibiotics made me feel much, much better.

I now suffer from chronic pain and chronic fatigue. Ive been retested for Lyme twice since and both show negative.

Ive got some other stuff going on but I always wonder if Lyme has something to do with some of my health problems.

Im now 28 and feel 60. Not joking.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk

[Slumgum]

A neighbor of ours in Montana said his brother in Minnesota has had Lyme four times. Has he really been infected four different times? Or was he treated according to the CDC and insurance company protocols that say to take antibiotics for a month. Then you wait a while, and the infections comes roaring back.

Some believe once you contract Lyme disease you never really get rid of it. At best, it can only be kept at bay.

[IslandPete]

I got treated for Lyme at 22. I had never been so sick in my life. The antibiotics made me feel much, much better.

I now suffer from chronic pain and chronic fatigue. Ive been retested for Lyme twice since and both show negative.

Ive got some other stuff going on but I always wonder if Lyme has something to do with some of my health problems.

Im now 28 and feel 60. Not joking.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk

Fox,
if your doctor is testing you, I expect you’re getting the “Eliza” test, and it’s worthless. Ask for a “Western Blot” test. If the doc won’t order it, find a LabCorp or Quest lab in your area and you can get yourself tested. If you’ve got Lyme, you can still treat it. My daughter was feeling the same as you, and is now much, much better. I’d be happy to talk with you outside the forum if you have questions or get tested positive. PM me
pete

[Carbo]

In addition to the preventive measures listed above, you may want to have a Lyme test done, one before the season starts to get a reference level, then a second one near the end of season to see if there is any increase in the level indicated by the results.

[Berserker]

This is a great discussion, and I didn't really finish my thought in my first post of this thread. First off, if you are a firm believer in what I call the "silver bullet" approach to taking a single doxycycline pill after being bitten, then go for it. I'm not here to judge anyone who thinks that approach works because I don't know if it does or not.

My main conundrum with this approach is that there's no scientific data or study that backs it up. I'm not a doctor, but I am an engineer by trade and am thus subject to thinking things through in a logical manner. I've seen this approach discussed online, but there's never any scientific evidence backing up that this has any more effect than taking a placebo. I don't know of any bacterial infection where a doctor would prescribe a single antibiotic pill to cure it. Antibiotics are always prescribed as a course consisting of some period of time (i.e. 5 days, 2 weeks, etc.). Considering how complicated the biological processes are in our bodies I don't see how a single pill could actually do anything. I mean what's the criteria for the application of the single dose? Without a study to develop this criteria it's just a crap shoot as to when to take it, and if it will even work.

Furthermore, as detailed by some other posters in this thread with firsthand experience, Lyme is a very complicated disease that is not fully understood. So the data is not there to determine who's at risk, what are all the potential complications for those individuals and so on. I mean I find it hard to believe that everyone that is bitten by a Lyme infected black legged tick is contracting Lyme. So that leads me to believe that certain individuals may be at more risk (e.g. maybe people who have some underlying autoimmune disorder), and we just don't have the data to determine who those people are yet.

At any rate, that's just my opinion. I'm deathly afraid of Lyme and every time I see a tick on me (about 99% of them are not black legged ticks by the way) I freak out and want to go on antibiotics, but I don't because it logically doesn't make sense. So I just thought I'd post my opinion from someone that's prone to overreacting to certain things to hopefully help others like myself who may be reading this thread and starting to freak out.

To those who posted that have Lyme or have first hand experience with it, thanks for posting and providing details. Lyme is a very scary disease, and my heart goes out to all of you directly affected by it.

From my own perspective and experience from living in a black-legged tick infested environment, I believe it is dangerous to wait for the medical establishment to reach some consensus regarding how best to deal with Lyme disease (It is not called "Lymes" disease). IMHO human medicine in the US is driven primarily by fear of malpractice suits and profit rather than what is "best" for the patient.

Thanks Slumgum, I went back and corrected my post to get rid of "Lymes" as I didn't do a good proofread before posting.

[trailmercury]

This is a great discussion, and I didn't really finish my thought in my first post of this thread. First off, if you are a firm believer in what I call the "silver bullet" approach to taking a single doxycycline pill after being bitten, then go for it. I'm not here to judge anyone who thinks that approach works because I don't know if it does or not.

My main conundrum with this approach is that there's no scientific data or study that backs it up. I'm not a doctor, but I am an engineer by trade and am thus subject to thinking things through in a logical manner. I've seen this approach discussed online, but there's never any scientific evidence backing up that this has any more effect than taking a placebo. I don't know of any bacterial infection where a doctor would prescribe a single antibiotic pill to cure it. Antibiotics are always prescribed as a course consisting of some period of time (i.e. 5 days, 2 weeks, etc.). Considering how complicated the biological processes are in our bodies I don't see how a single pill could actually do anything. I mean what's the criteria for the application of the single dose? Without a study to develop this criteria it's just a crap shoot as to when to take it, and if it will even work.

Furthermore, as detailed by some other posters in this thread with firsthand experience, Lyme is a very complicated disease that is not fully understood. So the data is not there to determine who's at risk, what are all the potential complications for those individuals and so on. I mean I find it hard to believe that everyone that is bitten by a Lyme infected black legged tick is contracting Lyme. So that leads me to believe that certain individuals may be at more risk (e.g. maybe people who have some underlying autoimmune disorder), and we just don't have the data to determine who those people are yet.

At any rate, that's just my opinion. I'm deathly afraid of Lyme and every time I see a tick on me (about 99% of them are not black legged ticks by the way) I freak out and want to go on antibiotics, but I don't because it logically doesn't make sense. So I just thought I'd post my opinion from someone that's prone to overreacting to certain things to hopefully help others like myself who may be reading this thread and starting to freak out.

To those who posted that have Lyme or have first hand experience with it, thanks for posting and providing details. Lyme is a very scary disease, and my heart goes out to all of you directly affected by it.


Thanks Slumgum, I went back and corrected my post to get rid of "Lymes" as I didn't do a good proofread before posting.

False.

There are infections that are diagnosed and treated as a one time dose. Chlamydia is one of them... Vaginal yeast infection is another... There are others. Gonorrhea is treated with a single intramuscular injection.