Baxter State Park Thru-hiker Limits

[rickb]

[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2124989]
The ATC is looking foolish.[/QUOTE

Muddy,

Good point on using parking as a limiter, but l compare the number of hikers going up the Hunt Trail in the months that Thru Hikers are likely to be in BSP (either as SOBOs or NOBOd), vs the months they are not.

What do yo make of that?

[Carl7]

Would Baxter State Park consider allowing some type of trail maintenance, etc. in return for a permit to climb Katahdin? What a great place to return a favor to the trail, Baxter State Park.

[FreeGoldRush]

Would Baxter State Park consider allowing some type of trail maintenance, etc. in return for a permit to climb Katahdin? What a great place to return a favor to the trail, Baxter State Park.

Apparently not. The culture appears to be "free to all" and not expecting anyone to have to contribute in some way. I completely understand the basis for this thought, but it does not appear sustainable in my opinion.

[Krippledprophet]

the trouble with this is the atc not respecting the principles the land was donated for by the late Percival Baxter with the declaration that the land will "Remain Forever Wild" further development in the park is counter that ideal. They have always been very strict because they are stewards of the land and the tremendous gift bestowed on the people.

Baxter shouldn't include sobo hikers in the thru cap and perhaps should do what yosemite has done with the Passes for hiking out of the valley over donohue pass and do rail caps.

[Krippledprophet]

can't edit but last post should read daily caps

[rickb]

The most recent figure published (that I found) were in 2013:

1539 Hikers climbed Katahdin via in AT in June
2759 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in July
3213 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in August
2046 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in September
1214 Hikers climberd Katahdin via the AT in October

Think about when AT Hikers climb Katahdin.

Do these numbers open your eyes just a bit?

Then do a bit more work and look at the distribution of Hikers summiting Katahdin via all Trails, to put these numbers in even better perspective.

[Bronk]

They should move the terminus of the AT to Time Square.

[xnav]

If Avery was from Virginia it would have ended in VA, same said for any state along the AT. Nothing magical about Katahdin except it is a big mountain in the middle of nowhere. ATC should pick a new terminus that can support the numbers that will only grow. Nothing happened when they moved the southern terminus, and now that is having problems even though it is much more accessible then Katahdin. I favor crossing a bridge or a border for a fitting ending. I hate walking the same trail twice.

[gpburdelljr]

The most recent figure published (that I found) were in 2013:

1539 Hikers climbed Katahdin via in AT in June
2759 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in July
3213 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in August
2046 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in September
1214 Hikers climberd Katahdin via the AT in October

Think about when AT Hikers climb Katahdin.

Do these numbers open your eyes just a bit?

Then do a bit more work and look at the distribution of Hikers summiting Katahdin via all Trails, to put these numbers in even better perspective.

do you have a link to your data source?

[LoneStranger]

The most recent figure published (that I found) were in 2013:

1539 Hikers climbed Katahdin via in AT in June
2759 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in July
3213 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in August
2046 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in September
1214 Hikers climberd Katahdin via the AT in October

Think about when AT Hikers climb Katahdin.

Do these numbers open your eyes just a bit?

Then do a bit more work and look at the distribution of Hikers summiting Katahdin via all Trails, to put these numbers in even better perspective.

As an actual data analyst for many years I find your enthusiasm for whatever you think those numbers prove amusing. Yes, one could focus on the number of thru hikers vs the number of total hikers and assume that proves that thru hikers don't cause any problems so they should have unlimited access. One would be horribly wrong in making that assumption based on the data you posted, but it is a free country, for now at least.

If you want to do an analysis of impact you need data on the impact. Do you have that? If not then the numbers you keep posting don't support any conclusion other than July and August being popular months for climbing Katahdin.

If you want to look at numbers with meaning there were some posted earlier in this thread about how many hiker/nights were available for the season at The Birches and comparing that number to the available thru hiker permits.

What I did notice is that the NoBo limits are set apx equal to the number of spots at the Birches for the NoBo season.

12 spots/day X 30 days/month X 4 months that the bubble finished = 1440

Limits for NoBo = 1350

Those this does not include those who obtain reservations, but they then should be counted guests at the campground and exempt, or if overnighting in Millinocket, as day hikers and should hopefully not change the numbers. Add a allowance for LD and Flips and then NoBo may not be affected.

Once you see that the number of permits is based on that number of available hiker/nights it becomes clear why there aren't more. That is an analysis backed by actual data rather than emotion.

[rickb]

As an actual data analyst for many years I find your enthusiasm for whatever you think those numbers prove amusing. Yes, one could focus on the number of thru hikers vs the number of total hikers and assume that proves that thru hikers don't cause any problems so they should have unlimited access. One would be horribly wrong in making that assumption based on the data you posted, but it is a free country, for now at least.

If you want to do an analysis of impact you need data on the impact. Do you have that? If not then the numbers you keep posting don't support any conclusion other than July and August being popular months for climbing Katahdin.

I find that reaction astonishing.

[One Half]

The most recent figure published (that I found) were in 2013:

1539 Hikers climbed Katahdin via in AT in June
2759 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in July
3213 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in August
2046 Hikers climbed Katahdin via the AT in September
1214 Hikers climberd Katahdin via the AT in October

Think about when AT Hikers climb Katahdin.

Do these numbers open your eyes just a bit?

Then do a bit more work and look at the distribution of Hikers summiting Katahdin via all Trails, to put these numbers in even better perspective.

You certainly cannot attribute the rise in those summiting Katahdin in July and August just to AT hikers. After all, ALL of Maine, NH, MA public schools (and I would also guess CT, RI and VT) get out for the summer in late June (after the 15th usually) and are back to school either just before or just after Labor Day which means families from there have July and August to take family vacations. If we could see those numbers by the months over the past 10 years it may shed more light on the impact of thru hikers/flip floppers etc.

Even still, the outdoor sports have become more and more popular over recent years, especially when you add in the "affluence affect."

[Praha4]

easy solution. Just don't bother hiking BSP.

Section hiking has more appeal all the time. Pick the season and section, and you can still experience the AT like it once was before it became overrun with too many thru hikers.

[Praha4]

that and the endless youtube vids showing the parties on the AT

youtube vids, trail journals, Hollywood movies, books ... the AT experience has been hyped beyond belief in recent years

[Engine]

... the AT experience has been hyped beyond belief in recent years

The old AT experience...

[Don H]

When the total number of thru-hiker passes are used it appears as though thru-hikers will have to get in line for one of the limited day passes. I believe the way this works (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you line up at the gate early in the morning to get in and that the number of people allowed in is limited. Wouldn't this then put thru-hikers in direct competition for these limited passes with the local day hikers?

[Starchild]

When the total number of thru-hiker passes are used it appears as though thru-hikers will have to get in line for one of the limited day passes. I believe the way this works (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you line up at the gate early in the morning to get in and that the number of people allowed in is limited. Wouldn't this then put thru-hikers in direct competition for these limited passes with the local day hikers?

Good point, and I can see the thru hikers camping at the gate the night before, perhaps even tenting on the road at the gate to ensure their entry. They are most prepared and very willing to do so and so very easy for them.

[LoneStranger]

When the total number of thru-hiker passes are used it appears as though thru-hikers will have to get in line for one of the limited day passes. I believe the way this works (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you line up at the gate early in the morning to get in and that the number of people allowed in is limited. Wouldn't this then put thru-hikers in direct competition for these limited passes with the local day hikers?

The daily limits are for parking, not hikers. There are a limited number of Day Use Parking Reservations (DUPRs) available with any extras left over being issued on a first come, first serve basis at the gate. Locals and anyone serious about planning a day hike during the busy season book their parking reservations in advance and show up at the gate early so as not to give up their spot as they don't hold no show space past 7am.

No idea how the limited parking passes will impact thru hikers as they aren't likely to have a vehicle. They seem to be saying if you don't have access to The Birches via a hiker card the night before you need to enter as a day user via the gate on the day you want to summit. Entering on foot wouldn't require a parking pass, but the gate is quite some distance from the AT so that will likely be the biggest problem. Personally I think I'd be there before the gate opens asking folks with an empty seat if I could ride in with them, though I don't know how the park feels about that tactic

[Starchild]

When the total number of thru-hiker passes are used it appears as though thru-hikers will have to get in line for one of the limited day passes. I believe the way this works (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you line up at the gate early in the morning to get in and that the number of people allowed in is limited. Wouldn't this then put thru-hikers in direct competition for these limited passes with the local day hikers?

More on this, it seems like ultimately BSP loses this battle, unless they want to put a requirement for day use that no one who has walked here from Springer is allowed entry in the same calendar year.

However the war, and the nuclear options, kick the AT out of the park, vs. take the AT corridor by eminent domain from BSP still rage on.

[Lone Wolf]

Whitecap mtn. would be a nice terminus