Baxter State Park Thru-hiker Limits

[FreeGoldRush]

Why BSP can't do something like make a second 'birches' a mile or two before the current one to help spread out the AT crowds, and even reduce the capacity of both from 12 to 8, well the mind boggles.

And that hits the nail on the head. BSP is making it very clear that "free to all" will not be tolerated. It's only free to those who get there early and apparently to those who have a car and a parking resevation. Insisting on free just is not sustainable. There are better ways that can also accommodate thru hikers.

[rickb]

The last minute spots reserved for Maine residents have been in play for a very long time.

A bunch hikers calling from Monson will compete with folks from out of state -- like you and me -- as well as Maine residents who have not already booked their sites yet.

Not good.

But what of the Thru Hikers who book a 4-plus person leanto from Gorham -- three or four weeks out? The new policy encourages that.

Not good for anyone, includiing Maine residents.

As for Baxter being evil -- far from it. I expect the Superintendent believers in his mission, and I respect that focus.

It is just that this cap bad idea. It will not achieve the intended results, and will impact more than just Thru Hikers.

[Starchild]

And that hits the nail on the head. BSP is making it very clear that "free to all" will not be tolerated. It's only free to those who get there early and apparently to those who have a car and a parking resevation. Insisting on free just is not sustainable. There are better ways that can also accommodate thru hikers.

What is the 'free for all'? Currently there are nightly limits at the Birches of a max of 12 and the thru hikers have to pay for those spots.

My suggestion was to make a second one, not drop the fee.

[FreeGoldRush]

What is the 'free for all'? Currently there are nightly limits at the Birches of a max of 12 and the thru hikers have to pay for those spots.

My suggestion was to make a second one, not drop the fee.

"Free to all" is the current trail culture. I see a future where there is a permit fee and the fees are applied to creating better facilities. That would provide access to all. But that honestly is not what they want and it's not what a lot of hikers want. Limiting access is just part of government. They have all done it going back to the Roman Empire. Why change with the changing demands of the people when you have the power to simply restrict access? They'll say they are protecting the wilderness by limiting the foot traffic. And they are. I'm simply saying that the trail should be maintained to support the traffic demand. That also protects the wilderness.

[rickb]

Not being a Maine resident, I was never motivated to understand the exact particulars of BSP reservation system for them, but Peakbagger's comments got me wondering.

I get (after a Google) that about 30% of each CG's sites are set aside for Maine Residents -- and what is left of those those 30% is only made available to out of state resident if they are unclaimed a week (2?) out.

But once those 30% are reserved by Maine Residents (from 4 months to 1 week prior to their visit -- how fast they are scarfed up probably depends on the date and particular CG) do Maine residents have any priority over what may remain?

Or would they be forced to compete with everyone else -- including thruhikers -- for reservations?

[Traveler]

From what I have heard of it, you summarize it nicely. But consider that the number of thru hiker permits is about equal to the number of spots/day at the Birches it is just them stamping their feet and saying that they are not building more AT thru hiker accommodations. It really does not seem to have any effect on the thru hikers as the limits at the Birches is already there.


Why BSP can't do something like make a second 'birches' a mile or two before the current one to help spread out the AT crowds, and even reduce the capacity of both from 12 to 8, well the mind boggles.

It might help to review the charter/mission of the Park to understand why development is not embraced quickly. If, however, those promoting this idea would offer to pay for this expansion (a considerable cost even if completed with volunteer labor) and fund the personnel necessary to monitor and care for them, it may help move that argument a little. However, I doubt it will get past Baxter's conditions of land use.

[peakbagger]

I guess the armchair quarterbacks are missing a fundamental issue when they try to somehow link thru hiker usage from denying others from using the Park. The park has numerous campgrounds with only KSC impacted significantly by thruhiker traffic. Abol and Foster Field can get some minor impacts but that generally requires park staff involvement. As anyone who has actually camped in the park knows, KSC, Abol and Foster field are not really destination campsites, they are a drive in place to stay while on the way to a day destination in the park. KSC is a quite a dense campground with fairly close spacing between the tentsites. The lean tos are nice but there is a steady stream of hiker traffic walking quite close behind them from 6 AM to 8PM. Its still a nice spot despite the crowds but there are far nicer campgrounds in the park for folks who want to head in for several days and many of them don't book up fully during the week and even on popular weekends there are frequently openings. Most folks only climb Katahdin once from KSC on a multiday trip so the rest of the time they are going elsewhere in the park.

Thus the contention that thru hikers are potentially denying the right for a hard working mainers to make a last minute trip to the park is pretty weak. Since the vast majority of hard working Mainers drive to the park, all they need to do is book one of the majority of the campgrounds of little interest to thru hikers. Even on the most busy weekend there are sites open in the park although they may be the NE corner of the park which has attractions of its own.

[MuddyWaters]

I guess the armchair quarterbacks are missing a fundamental issue when they try to somehow link thru hiker usage from denying others from using the Park. The park has numerous campgrounds with only KSC impacted significantly by thruhiker traffic. Abol and Foster Field can get some minor impacts but that generally requires park staff involvement. As anyone who has actually camped in the park knows, KSC, Abol and Foster field are not really destination campsites, they are a drive in place to stay while on the way to a day destination in the park. KSC is a quite a dense campground with fairly close spacing between the tentsites. The lean tos are nice but there is a steady stream of hiker traffic walking quite close behind them from 6 AM to 8PM. Its still a nice spot despite the crowds but there are far nicer campgrounds in the park for folks who want to head in for several days and many of them don't book up fully during the week and even on popular weekends there are frequently openings. Most folks only climb Katahdin once from KSC on a multiday trip so the rest of the time they are going elsewhere in the park.

Thus the contention that thru hikers are potentially denying the right for a hard working mainers to make a last minute trip to the park is pretty weak. Since the vast majority of hard working Mainers drive to the park, all they need to do is book one of the majority of the campgrounds of little interest to thru hikers. Even on the most busy weekend there are sites open in the park although they may be the NE corner of the park which has attractions of its own.

Theres a few folks that I think need to take BSP at their word.

1. they dont want an unlimited use model whereby #s are ever escalating. This doesnt bode well 5, 10 yrs out at growth rates. The rest of BSP is fixed by parking and camping capacity.

2. they dont want their staff spending ever growing time on the radio making arrangements for long distance AT hikers that are too ignorant or entitled to make prior arrangements for themselves. This includes a number of sobo as well. This includes shuttles and pickups in the park, as well as BSP campgrounds .

In late sept, KSC reservations arent that hard to come by. Other times of year, July, Aug they are . Displacing a bunch of NOBO to hit BSP during times when KSC is booked is a problem when the birches runs out. Also a problems for SOBO all the time,

[LoneStranger]

I have made multiple trips every year for some time now. Usually I make my reservations as soon as the dates are available four months ahead of time to be sure to get the spots we want. Other times we'll just decide at the last minute and let availability dictate our plans. None of my trips have ever included an overnight stay in any part of the park a NOBO thru hiker might want to use. I'm just not seeing a problem with thrus booking a site in advance or soaking up availability.

The real issue is where do they go when there is no room at the inn? I'm guessing there will be a lot of tickets written for illegal camping this season if that happens often and then people will start complaining about The Man keeping them down for that.

[rickb]

Thus the contention that thru hikers are potentially denying the right for a hard working mainers to make a last minute trip to the park is pretty weak. Since the vast majority of hard working Mainers drive to the park, all they need to do is book one of the majority of the campgrounds of little interest to thru hikers. Even on the most busy weekend there are sites open in the park although they may be the NE corner of the park which has attractions of its own.

OK, I think I get what you are saying.

Is it that if a thru hikers start scooping up leans to at KSCG through the normal reservation process, that will not impact the plans of others looking to Climb Katahdin?

That makes sense if other campgrounds are available-- plus, thru hikers camping in KSCG are unlikely to have cars, so they won't be taking a parking spot.

With that in mind, perhaps there really is no down-side to Thru Hikers making reservations at KSCG from Monson or Gorham or even farther south.

I was thinking that if they did that it would screw everything up for a more tradional park user, and the subsequent fix (which would surely come) would make matters worse.

Good to hear that will be a non-issue.

[rickb]

One question on logistics.

Would a Thru Hiker with a reservation at KSCG (or even Abol) be guaranteed access to the Park via the Trail at Abol Bridge after the NOBO quota has been met?

[Starchild]

...

The real issue is where do they go when there is no room at the inn? I'm guessing there will be a lot of tickets written for illegal camping this season if that happens often and then people will start complaining about The Man keeping them down for that.

Would they be denied day hiking and staying in Millinocket at night, hitching or shuttling in and out?

[peakbagger]

One question on logistics.

Would a Thru Hiker with a reservation at KSCG (or even Abol) be guaranteed access to the Park via the Trail at Abol Bridge after the NOBO quota has been met?

Good question, I expect that the park is going to have a plan in place if and when the permit limit occurs. I think folks believe that the park makes this stuff up as the go along, they do give the individual rangers discretion and expect that gets the rangers in trouble when they go out of their way to help thruhikers and interferes with another duty they should have been doing. Common sense is that the new policy is for thru hikers who just show up and want to be accommodated. They have been given plenty of opportunities to understand the risks they are taking with respect to park entry without reservations they just have elected to roll the dice. I would expect that a thru hiker with valid reservation would be treated the same as someone driving into the park gate but expect some folks who want to make the staff into devils will assume that common sense wont rule. My experience over 30 plus years at the park is to the contrary, the staff do what they can to help everyone unless the folks have an attitude and want a bad interaction with the staff.

The "no room at the Inn" is probably a fundamental issue that doesn't have a good cure. I expect if its nice stretch of sunny late august to mid September weather, folks go in the park stay the night,, hike tot he summit and catch the shuttle out that evening. Lets assume that the Birches is full and several thru hiker groups called ahead and booked a shared campsite that will hold 4. For ease of math lets assume 12 more thruhikers in KSC. As they bed down for the night the dark clouds move in and a stalled front forms over the park. That means 2 to 5 days of crappy weather on the summit at a minimum with some days dangerous. So what is a thruhiker to do if they cant climb to the summit?. Odds are they want to stay an extra night. That means 24 folks need a spot to stay without a reservation as 24 more thru hikers are behind them. Now extend that for a couple of days and there quickly can be 72 thruhikers or more looking for a spare spot to stay. Odds are someone knows someone with a car and the logical way to spend the down time is to head into town and buy beer and food as most only had one day worth of food to finish their hike. BSP is carry in/carry out, do you expect that folks who have partied for a couple of days are going to carry out their debris? highly unlikely. There is no cell service so at least a portion of these folks are going to be desperate to reach civilization so they can reschedule their plans to go home That means the BSP staff has to deal with all these issues to the diminution of their other tasks. I see folks advocating another Birches but given the potential numbers I expect there will need to be several other Birches just to handle the foul weather days. BSP has pretty well drawn the line a few years ago and told the ATC and NPS that that's not their mission. The AT Lodge may enjoy the extra business and will charge for it but even they have limits on how many folks they can drive into the park to day hike the summit. I must admit that on a couple of trips up there I have been skunked by bad weather. I make the best of it and usually head home early. I don't expect that the park is going to try to extend my stay until the weather clears.

By the way there are three adjacent group campsites at Fosters Field which hold a total of 49 (12, 12 and 25) campers. Its 2 miles down the road from KSC but is remote from KSC and any other adjacent campgrounds. I don't think the park would outright hand the three sites off to the ATC but expect that they may be amenable to ATC staffing the large site and letting them deal with the issues. The problem is that the groups that normally reserve this spot are going to rightfully complain that the thruhikers are being given special preference. Many of these groups are youth groups and their expectations of proper decorum are probably not going to line up with thru hikers and they are backed up by Park rules. Practically its also a money loser. 25 folks and lets say $2 a head for management is $50 a day to pay for an employee to work a potentially 16 hour day? Its would be an overflow site so that means many times it would be less than full further reducing revenue. They would need a vehicle and most likely a Satellite phone and most likely they would need someone to relieve them on occasion. I expect this has been discussed during the meetings between MATC, ATC and BSP but I expect everyone realizes its not a viable option.

[Bansko]

I foresee a fair amount more stealth camping

No need to camp at Baxter, stealth or otherwise. You can start early at Abol Bridge, hike into Baxter, summit and descend Katahdin, and hitch a ride into Millinocket all in the same day. At least that's what I did, and I wasn't rushing.

[Krippledprophet]

going over the mountain bypasses the permit system for soho as you get the permit after you climb. my sobo is beginning at roaring brook you get a permit after hiking by stopping in at ksc ranger station.

these were instructions given by baxter. it bypasses permit issues officially as it is a traditional use of two campsites. logistically more difficult as you carry a full pack up helon or cathedral then camp at ksc then hike out of baxter.

my itinerary is

june 30 shuttle to roaring brook and camp
july 1 day break hike up helon taylor cross knifes edge to baxter peak (have option to stay a second night for weather)
july 1 descend hunt trail.
july 1 camp ksc
july 2 camp ksc
july 3 hike out of baxter


the flaw with this plan is weather as dudley is closed so there is no trail that is really suitable for ascent in bad weather without experience as cathedral and knifes edge are both rather foolish with bad wind or rain. I have done both in horrid weather and don't recommend them. there is no alternate path to the summit once you ascend helon and if you can't do the chimney or are squeamish about heights the only option is to turn around and lugging a full pack on that stretch is not ideal for most.

[egilbe]

going over the mountain bypasses the permit system for soho as you get the permit after you climb. my sobo is beginning at roaring brook you get a permit after hiking by stopping in at ksc ranger station.

these were instructions given by baxter. it bypasses permit issues officially as it is a traditional use of two campsites. logistically more difficult as you carry a full pack up helon or cathedral then camp at ksc then hike out of baxter.

my itinerary is

june 30 shuttle to roaring brook and camp
july 1 day break hike up helon taylor cross knifes edge to baxter peak (have option to stay a second night for weather)
july 1 descend hunt trail.
july 1 camp ksc
july 2 camp ksc
july 3 hike out of baxter


the flaw with this plan is weather as dudley is closed so there is no trail that is really suitable for ascent in bad weather without experience as cathedral and knifes edge are both rather foolish with bad wind or rain. I have done both in horrid weather and don't recommend them. there is no alternate path to the summit once you ascend helon and if you can't do the chimney or are squeamish about heights the only option is to turn around and lugging a full pack on that stretch is not ideal for most.

May be easier to start at Chimney pond, hike up Hamlin Ridge, bag Baxter peak and then descend Hunt.

[Krippledprophet]

May be easier to start at Chimney pond, hike up Hamlin Ridge, bag Baxter peak and then descend Hunt.

hamlin is a nice hike generally quiet too. its the distant third option for me if weather just isn't cooperating.

the good thing about actually being a mainer is how accommodating the park is for in state users. baxter gets a bad rep from people for all the rules and enforcement but whats there is worth protecting.


I considered going a couple days earlier to tag the traveler loop as its one of the nicest hikes in the state. I have never actually seen another hiker on it when I do it. generally 1-2 times a year

[rafe]

No need to camp at Baxter, stealth or otherwise. You can start early at Abol Bridge, hike into Baxter, summit and descend Katahdin, and hitch a ride into Millinocket all in the same day. At least that's what I did, and I wasn't rushing.

I applaud you on your fitness, ambition, preparation, etc. Still, that's a 30.2 mile hike with 8,000 of vertical change.

Most finishing thru hikers, I imagine, would not want to rush through that last day.

Baxter is a special kind of place. It's worth making nice with the officials. They really do mean well and for the most part they've bent over backwards to accommodate AT hikers.

[peakbagger]

hamlin is a nice hike generally quiet too. its the distant third option for me if weather just isn't cooperating.

the good thing about actually being a mainer is how accommodating the park is for in state users. baxter gets a bad rep from people for all the rules and enforcement but whats there is worth protecting.


I considered going a couple days earlier to tag the traveler loop as its one of the nicest hikes in the state. I have never actually seen another hiker on it when I do it. generally 1-2 times a year

The Saddle trail is probably the easiest way up from the east side. Its the least exposed below where it pops out onto the Table land although the last 4000 feet of this hike via the combined Hamlin Ridge/Saddle trail is very exposed to weather (like all the trails on the Tableland). I do admit that most folks miss out on quite a nice hike up Hamlin Ridge trail as the view down North Basin and the view north up the Howe Peak ridge.

[TJ aka Teej]

going over the mountain bypasses the permit system for soho as you get the permit after you climb. my sobo is beginning at roaring brook you get a permit after hiking by stopping in at ksc ranger station.

these were instructions given by baxter.

If it "bypasses the permit system" why do "you get the permit after you climb"?