Trailrunners, Darn Tough, Gore-Tex is bad, snow on the AT

[Puddlefish]

I think the silver bullet solution with trail runners in the winter is to use some sort of VBL system thereby allowing the shoe to get soaked but the sock and/or foot remains dry . . . and warm. Or warmer. Some backpackers use a two sock system or one sock against the skin and the VBL layer over this sock.

Back in April 2015 I pulled an 18 day section hike on the BMT with my friend Willow who was pulling a complete thruhike of the trail. It was a very wet and rainy and cold April!

Even though her socks stayed damp for the time we were together, she hated stepping in long trail puddles and getting completely soaked again whereby she felt she needed to wring out her socks. There was therefore alot of hopping and jumping about to avoid water holes and especially at small creek crossings.

My Asolo Fugitive gtx boots also eventually got soaked but not from the crossings and puddles but from the rain water dripping down my legs, inevitable with any kind of boot unless you don't hike in the rain and pull tent zero days (which is something I often do in tough winter rainstorms). Here's a pic of Willow---and her shoes---

Attachment 42410

There's one more factor regarding trail runners for backpacking and something I've noticed with backpackers using them---they tend to slide more in the mud on steep trails. For me a big factor in choosing footwear for backpacking is the tread on the shoe/boot. The deeper the lug sole, the less you will slip and slide. Compare these two---
https://www.google.com/search?q=trai...ih=732#imgrc=_

https://www.google.com/search?q=lug+boot+tread&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X& ved=0ahUKEwi_8cvB1pLaAhUScq0KHWh2DvEQ_AUICigB&biw= 1536&bih=732#imgrc=WeroGJFjQSNgsM:

Probably why my username is Puddlefish. I go right for the water in the middle of the trail. It's far safer for me. The edges of puddles are usually sloped, and I'm more likely to get off balance and slip in the thin mud. This strategy only failed me once, when I went nearly knee deep into the mud on some trail through a field along the TN/NC border. Nearly lost a shoe!

Even stepping in streams, I've never felt the need to wring out my socks, they just squish out 90% of the water within a mile, which is pretty much the same dampness you get from sweating feet.

[Hosh]

This is certainly true in my trail journals and written trip reports---I do criticize some aspects of UL backpacking and thruhiking, as is my wont in my journals since they're an expression of my opinion---but I have not expressed any hostility or disrespect or intolerance in this thread. Your comment above reflects how you feel toward my trip reports but you transfer such dislike into this thread.

My first post said---

I thought of all the AT thruhikers out in March as I was backpacking nearby during March and saw alot of snow and alot of 12F cold mornings. I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.

There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis---and so I bring my leather ankle high boots. They allow me to wade little streams and keep my smartwool socks dry.


The majority of creek crossings in the Southeast are shallow rockhops with many of the rocks underneath the water. If you use tennis shoes you immediately soak your feet and socks---whereas a good full leather boots prevents this, as in my pic (crossing Brookshire Creek on the Benton MacKaye trail).

Where's the intolerance and hostility???? I expressed my opinion about what works for me.

My second post said---

Actually, these so-called 2,000 mile LD hikes are done in short section hikes interrupted with frequent town visits and resupplies---and laundry mat visits with dryers to dry socks etc. And overnight zeros in motel rooms. I doubt very few LD backpackers spend 3 weeks out uninterrupted with one food load. With frequent town visits they can afford to compromise their clothing and footwear.

So where's the hostility?? Don't most LD thruhikers make frequent town resupplies?? Or is this something I made up?

On the other hand, this is the comment from Dogwood that in my opinion started the "hostility" and disrespect---

As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.

How in the world would you know where and how I was backpacking in 1980 or 1984 or 1989 etc? What if I did a 500 mile hike in the summer of 1984 or 1988? Does this not qualify because it's not the magic 2,000 mile number? What if I've done frequent backpacking trips for months at a time involving precipitation, snow, ice, winter etc? Not genuine since I didn't get the patch?? Unsure of your intent. And you've never gone on any of my trips.

Walter Mitty is back in the building!

[Tipi Walter]

To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).

I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.

[Tipi Walter]

Walter Mitty is back in the building!

And don't forget when I played clarinet in the USAF Band and we performed a concert for Lyndon Johnson!!

usaf band.jpg
Your beloved Uncle Fungus on left . . . in the Texas heat.

[Puddlefish]

To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).

I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.

I'm not a winter hiker. I don't have the gear for anything more than a dayhike in the winter. It's an entirely different sport. Pertinent to this thread, I don't believe the temperature in recent weeks has been remotely close to zero, at least not on the southern section of the AT where most people are hiking currently.

My only good winter activity story involve -10 degree temps, high winds, ski boots, and a broken chair lift near the top of Cannon mountain.

[Carl7]

Tipi, concerning your photo of the Asola Boots delaminating, obviously those boost have seen a lot of water. It seems that any glued shoe has this issue with long-term water exposure. I have only used my Asolo's in desert conditions and have not had this issue. Once again, where is the silver bullet?

[Dogwood]

Tipi, much of what you say regarding LD hiking, UL, gear, and backpacking approaches arrives out of a good-natured personality. Many laughs can be enjoyed when we choose not to be offended or be put on the defensive. I simcerely hope we can see past those choices. How you sometimes say it pokes at some reality. It may not always reflect everyone's reality though.

If you have avos and I some Vegan Thai Curry we could share laughs warming up our feet around a campfire. If I'm ever in the Slickrock area in winter I'll be looking for you. Maybe, I'll even have along WP socks and size? "tennis" shoes for you and you can show me the trail work you did.

But keep the anvil out of my UL sight! LOL

[Tipi Walter]

If you have avos and I some Vegan Thai Curry we could share laughs warming up our feet around a campfire. If I'm ever in the Slickrock area in winter I'll be looking for you. Maybe, I'll even have along WP socks and size? "tennis" shoes for you and you can show me the trail work you did.

But keep the anvil out of my UL sight! LOL

Thai curry sounds pretty good and a few avos couldn't hurt. I'll leave the choice of bringing in a watermelon up to you.

[Dogwood]

Ah we're not so lost after all. There's hope for us. You can't be all that bad if you lived all those yrs in a Teepee and address nature as Mrs Nature.

If I bring a watermelon it's gonna be one of those UL small volume ice box sized ones.

[MuddyWaters]

To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).

I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.

Theres ways to mitigate.
My shoes go under head of my sleep pad to incline it. They have never frozen there in teens.

Shoes and wet clothing can be put inside pack liner and kept in sleeping bag too. Just like fuel and water filters have to be sometimes. No fun to put on, but not frozen stiff. Of course it's nice to wait till the sun comes up and the temperature is above freezing if you can. On ? really cold clear mornings I usually don't get up until the Sun is up. On warm mornings I'm up way before daylight.

[Dogwood]

To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).

I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.

He must not have been using GTX WP full leather boots because back in post #6 it was said, "I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.*

[MuddyWaters]

He must not have been using GTX WP full leather boots because back in post #6 it was said, "I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.*

The waterproof liner doesn't prevent the leather from getting waterlogged and freezing solid. Still have to oil the leather, seal the stitching Etc to prevent that. But then the boot doesn't breathe does it? And wet's out for me inside due to sweat.

[PatmanTN]

I rely on custom inserts which make boot fitting so difficult as to be nearly impossible. So I've been using low top shoes of some sort for a long time. When I hike in deep snow I get wet socks no matter what I do. GTX , no GTX, gaiters, no gaiters, VBL liners, breadbags, I can't seem to really stop it from happening. In the Weminuche last year (where I spent a couple days moving slowly in about a foot of snow while peak bagging), I opted to slowly thaw my frozen socks over my stove each morning rather than trying to dry them in my bag overnight. I prefer not to have stuff in my bag with me in general but will sometimes put my Sawyer filter (and maybe my phone in there in certain conditions ).

[Tipi Walter]

He must not have been using GTX WP full leather boots because back in post #6 it was said, "I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.*

It's mostly true nowadays as in an all-day rainstorm I elect to stay in my tent all day and pull a zero and wait for the storm to pass. This does alot to keep my gtx boots dry as no rain water is running down my legs and into my boots. Otherwise the boots keep my socks dry in shallow creek crossings (as in my picture) and in wet snow.

The waterproof liner doesn't prevent the leather from getting waterlogged and freezing solid. Still have to oil the leather, seal the stitching Etc to prevent that. But then the boot doesn't breathe does it? And wet's out for me inside due to sweat.

I use Hydrobloc waterproof treatment for my Zamberlan boots (sold by the company) and thoroughly coat the things before each trip. It causes the surface of the boot to be hydrophobic whereby no water soaks in and therefore the boot does not freeze solid like a brick at 0F. My old Asolo 520 boot leather allowed water to penetrate the leather and they would therefore become bricks on butt cold mornings, even after being treated with whatever boot grease I was using at the time.

Regarding your last comment about everything is wet inside the boot due to sweat, well, this just never happens to me. A totally wet boot weighs considerably more than a dry boot---and so if sweat really caused my boots to get wet I'd be hauling alot more boot weight every day---rain or shine. My feet don't get hot or sweat that much anyway---although I hear some backpackers have the opposite problem.

Now my old Sorel pac boots did cause sweating (and toe rot) because they are rubber and are not designed to breathe. My Zams on the other hand breathe very well despite the waterproof coating. I think it's because they are in a size Wide with ample inside air circulation and most of the heat comes out thru the ankle opening.

I rely on custom inserts which make boot fitting so difficult as to be nearly impossible. So I've been using low top shoes of some sort for a long time. When I hike in deep snow I get wet socks no matter what I do. GTX , no GTX, gaiters, no gaiters, VBL liners, breadbags, I can't seem to really stop it from happening. In the Weminuche last year (where I spent a couple days moving slowly in about a foot of snow while peak bagging), I opted to slowly thaw my frozen socks over my stove each morning rather than trying to dry them in my bag overnight. I prefer not to have stuff in my bag with me in general but will sometimes put my Sawyer filter (and maybe my phone in there in certain conditions ).

I'm like you---I don't allow anything wet or damp inside my down sleeping bag with me because it causes high humidity inside the bag and so the insulation doesn't perform as its peak. Goose down works best when everything is bone dry. I can wear damp things like my t-shirt and silk top baselayer and socks in camp while I'm cooking dinner if I want to body-dry these items.

[jefals]

Alright, let me throw my 2 cents in here:
It ain't a "laundry mat" - it's a "laundromat"! ?

[ScareBear]

"But Dogwood comes on and says I have basically no experience that involves precipitation, snow, ice or winter. Weird."


Yes it is weird that you've said that. That is not what I said, not what I intended, and you know it ignoring it to intentionally pick a fight. You certainly know I've viewed your winter reports. You can call what you're doing what you want - over intellectualizing, under intellectualizing, distortion, mis-perception, incorrect interpretation, or whatever, but that is not what was said or intended by my comments.


Here is what you said: "There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis..."


Here is what I said in reply: As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.


I stand by what I said.


Tipi, in complete frankness, although I so enjoy your detailed(intellectualized?) reports, what you've experienced, what you do in Nature, and respect you HYOH, you repeatedly display hostility, criticism, disrespect, and intolerance towards thru hikers, UL hikers, and often to those that somehow take a different approach when backpacking.

Anyone who reads a single Tipi trail report knows that he is off on his own HYOH planet that nobody other than him and a few select hermits inhabit. Some of his advice is spot on, most of his examples are hilariously inapplicable to anyone other than himself and those select few hermits.

However, the same can be said for you, Dogwood. I've called you "Dogma" on numerous occasions when your condescending tone and inappropriate hijacking of threads to spread your own version of what must be done to enjoy life, health and the trail is too much to bear.

I myself am guilty of super snark, condescending remarks and intolerance of ignorance, among other things. However, I am not guilty of delivering bad advice, and I can't say that about you or Tipi, to be honest....

HYOH. YMMV. ***GYOTT...

[Tipi Walter]

[QUOTE=ScareBear;2202562]Anyone who reads a single Tipi trail report knows that he is off on his own HYOH planet

]

For years I thought HYOH meant Hide Your Open Holes---and this explains for the most part my hermit nature.

[Venchka]

Blaming Darn Tough socks is unfair. Clearly the OP isn't aware of the wide variety of socks in the Darn Tough catalog.
I think I have 5 distinctly different varieties in my small inventory. The best way to tell them apart is to weigh them.
I do own North Cape and Rohner socks which are my first choice for cold and nasty conditions.
Wayne

[saltysack]

[QUOTE=Tipi Walter;2202563]

Anyone who reads a single Tipi trail report knows that he is off on his own HYOH planet

]

For years I thought HYOH meant Hide Your Open Holes---and this explains for the most part my hermit nature.

That’s in key west!!!


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[Venchka]

[QUOTE=saltysack;2202571]

That’s in key west!!!


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MODERATOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WAYNE