Bottoming out on pack weight: At a certain point, does it matter?

[dloome]

I should mention that I'd strongly describe myself as an ultralight backpacker/gram weenie and normally I'd cringe at the title of this thread, but hear me out.

What prompted me to write this was listening to Andrew Skurka talk about his recent trek through Northern Minnesota in January. Him and the interviewer get a little off topic and touch on this issue for a few
minutes. Listen from about minutes 29:30-35:50 for what I'm talking about:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...3_skurka2.html

Also, details about Glen Van Peski's sub 3 pound hike that Andrew refers to are here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...sub_3_pct.html

Like he says, at a certain point, is it worth making unsafe assumptions about conditions or "cutting corners" in order to drop a pack weight by a couple ounces, or a fraction of an ounce? As far as the effect of pack weight on your body for example, I do not think there is any real physiological difference between a pack weighing 5 pounds and one weighing 4.8 pounds, let alone a 0.1 ounce difference. So is it worth going to extremes when the real benefits of achieving that lower weight are (arguably) negligible?

I would agree that Glen's gear list is totally impractical for a significant or long term hike in variable conditions. I'll also say that I'm personally NOT impressed that he did this hike with such a low weight. Like Andrew mentioned, I think we need to question the value of something like this. What are we trying to accomplish or prove here? That in very specific areas and conditions, you can get by with very little gear? I don't find that particularly interesting, innovative, or of much value to anyone.

In the end, do what makes you happy. HYOH. But do you think we're reaching a point where the effect these weight differences have on our bodies, speed, efficiency etc. are no longer significant enough to have merit? I think we should always strive to improve the qualities of design and materials, and this alone tends to result in lower weight products, but I think we need to take a long, hard look at our motivations for these extremely light gear lists.

I mean, I'm still going to cut tags off my shirts, trim excess webbing, etc. These things serve no function. But on the other hand, I have a very solid, dialed in 3 season base weight of just under 8 pounds which I'm using on a PCT thru this year. Sure, I could feasibly drop maybe a half pound and I'm sure there's folks out there who'd do it, too. But at this point I just don't understand the motivation for this.

With many hikers carrying under 10 pounds of gear these days, again, I guess I just don't see the motivation to make significant gear changes in order to drop say, a half pound, when I think there is demonstrably NO practical advantages to it.

Your thoughts?

[Chache]

I should mention that I'd strongly describe myself as an ultralight backpacker/gram weenie and normally I'd cringe at the title of this thread, but hear me out.

What prompted me to write this was listening to Andrew Skurka talk about his recent trek through Northern Minnesota in January. Him and the interviewer get a little off topic and touch on this issue for a few
minutes. Listen from about minutes 29:30-35:50 for what I'm talking about:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...3_skurka2.html

Also, details about Glen Van Peski's sub 3 pound hike that Andrew refers to are here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...sub_3_pct.html

Like he says, at a certain point, is it worth making unsafe assumptions about conditions or "cutting corners" in order to drop a pack weight by a couple ounces, or a fraction of an ounce? As far as the effect of pack weight on your body for example, I do not think there is any real physiological difference between a pack weighing 5 pounds and one weighing 4.8 pounds, let alone a 0.1 ounce difference. So is it worth going to extremes when the real benefits of achieving that lower weight are (arguably) negligible?

I would agree that Glen's gear list is totally impractical for a significant or long term hike in variable conditions. I'll also say that I'm personally NOT impressed that he did this hike with such a low weight. Like Andrew mentioned, I think we need to question the value of something like this. What are we trying to accomplish or prove here? That in very specific areas and conditions, you can get by with very little gear? I don't find that particularly interesting, innovative, or of much value to anyone.

In the end, do what makes you happy. HYOH. But do you think we're reaching a point where the effect these weight differences have on our bodies, speed, efficiency etc. are no longer significant enough to have merit? I think we should always strive to improve the qualities of design and materials, and this alone tends to result in lower weight products, but I think we need to take a long, hard look at our motivations for these extremely light gear lists.

I mean, I'm still going to cut tags off my shirts, trim excess webbing, etc. These things serve no function. But on the other hand, I have a very solid, dialed in 3 season base weight of just under 8 pounds which I'm using on a PCT thru this year. Sure, I could feasibly drop maybe a half pound and I'm sure there's folks out there who'd do it, too. But at this point I just don't understand the motivation for this.

With many hikers carrying under 10 pounds of gear these days, again, I guess I just don't see the motivation to make significant gear changes in order to drop say, a half pound, when I think there is demonstrably NO practical advantages to it.

Your thoughts?

What kind of bag are you carrying,if you are and what temps do you expect when you have a base weight of 8 lbs? wouldyou give us a gear list?

[ronmoak]

In 1807 John Colter was stripped naked by some Indians and told to run. He killed one who was chasing him and took his blanked. He traveled the next 200 miles with only a blanket and eating bark and berries. Now that's light.

People pushing the limits on UL are doing so more to test themselves than the gear. What do we need to survive and still be reasonably comfortable? What is comfort anyway?

SUL isn't for everyone and certainly isn't needed for a successful thru-hike. However, it can help you discover things about yourself you didn't necessarily know or want too.

Ron

[Spork]

In He traveled the next 200 miles with only a blanket and eating bark and berries. Now that's light.
Ron

I wonder how heavy the blanket was and whether it had a catenary ridgeline?

Seriously, it's an interesting topic and Ron raises good points. As someone who has steadily moved from "traditional" through "light weight" and now into the realm of "UL", I can say that my own motivation has been primarily driven by a diminishing desire and ability to lug pack weight (or to recover from lugging pack weight) as I age. Lighter pack = longer walk.

However, I notice in myself and seem to observe in others that gram counting and ounce shedding can quickly go from being a sensible means to an end to a not-so-sensible end unto itself. For me, the not-so-sensible begins at the point where I start to make decisions about whether to do with less or to do without simply to keep getting my pack weight down below an arbitrary number, rather than on making smart personal decisions about safety and comfort. Safety and comfort certainly change over time based on experience and the desire to "test oneself", but I think there's also a lot of fairly foolish weight cutting going on just to be in the competition to "go low". Ultimately weight cutting is a cost-benefit relationship that I personally find to have diminishing returns and increasing risks. Then again, it's all a matter of HYOH...

[hammock engineer]

Bleach, you are way more ultralight than I am. I give you a lot of credit for developing the skill needed to go that low. I am happy in the low 20's where I am at now for winter. I am into the teens in the other 3 seasons, but that is it.

I think think you hit the nail square on the head. I think people going that low are more into testing their own skill rather than lowing their pack weight. There is a certain point that for me I am giving up more than I am gaining.

[ProphetGreenBlaze]

well the whole i dea of such a low weight scares me, i think id rather start out with to much than not enough but im the very deffinition of noob so it really makes little diffrence what i say sooo

[Lumberjack]

compromising your safety to save a couple of ounces is stupid and irresponsible. There is little difference between a 4 pound pack and a 5 pound one.

[Biloxi]

I had to chime in here, I had made a comment on this very subject in the big 4 thread>>>some of the weights people are on here listing seem seriously dangerous and kinda unbelieveable..in an effort to ''keep up'' some post base weights of 2 or 3 lbs..LOL ..even for the big 4 that is kinda out there..I hope they are assumeing that the weather will be perfect..how come I never see many pictures of these miniscule packs? now dont get me wrong..I have gone much lighter since beginning my research for my thru here on WB..but I am not gonna be wet,cold,hungry,funky dirty, in order to save .00004 grams and be miserable..so if I come upon you huddled in your multi functional rain poncho/wind poncho/shelter/bug protection/ground cloth/laundry clothes/insulation layer/sleeping bag that configuers to your pack,while your are trying to eat your umteenth meal of uncooked ramen.I will say hello, setup shop next to ya,change into my DRY clothes,crank up the ole stove''a nice shrimp alfredo ''sounds good..with a nice hot bourbon and honey..as I look out through my tent door..LIFE IS GOOD..O..ok..hey brother...you hungry? come on in..LETS TALK...HYOH

[Spork]

..so if I come upon you huddled in your multi functional rain poncho/wind poncho/shelter/bug protection/ground cloth/laundry clothes/insulation layer/sleeping bag that configuers to your pack,while your are trying to eat your umteenth meal of uncooked ramen.I will say hello, setup shop next to ya,change into my DRY clothes,crank up the ole stove''a nice shrimp alfredo ''sounds good..with a nice hot bourbon and honey..as I look out through my tent door..LIFE IS GOOD..O..ok..hey brother...you hungry? come on in..LETS TALK...HYOH

Oh, you are an evil, evil man! I admire that in a person........ ("Say buddy, ya wanna keep it down over there? I can't even hear my espresso maker over all that moaning!")

[Grampie]

Does pack weight matter? That's a good question. If it is the deciding factor when you ask the question; "will I have an sucessfull thru hike?" I say no.
Think of all the folks who have thru-hiked the AT before light weight stuff was available. The percentage of those who finished has stayed about the same. That leads me to believe that "going light" is not what gets you to Maine.
I have met a lot of hikers who believe that because they are sub 20 pounders they think the hike will be easy. They soon quit and go home because that wasn't the factor. To do a thru-hike is tough. It may be a tad easier for someone who is carrying a little less weight, but not enough to make a big difference.

[highway]

Lets see now, does pack weight REALLY make a difference?

Posing the question another way, would I prefer walking to Maine lugging 50 pounds upon my back or just 25 of them?

Even though it has often been done both ways I wonder what would I really prefer for me??

[aaronthebugbuffet]

Lets see now, does pack weight REALLY make a difference?

Posing the question another way, would I prefer walking to Maine lugging 50 pounds upon my back or just 25 of them?

Even though it has often been done both ways I wonder what would I really prefer for me??

25lbs are you crazy? I would never hike with more than 23.5lbs.

[hammock engineer]

I think to me pack weight makes a difference. Yes I would thru if there was no way to do it with less than 40lbs. To me the difference comes with the threat of injury. More weight can bring on stress and overuse injuries faster than less weight.

One of these days I might get to the point where I can feel safe and still test my limits sub 10 lbs. I would definitly start with overnight and weekend hikes and build my way up.

I think the longer I am out, the more I would want to add one or two more creature comforts.

[Lumberjack]

a sign your taking ul too far - weighing noodles to determine which brand/flavor is lightest.....

[aaronthebugbuffet]

I think some of you are missing the point of the thread. It's not saying pack weight doesn't matter. It's discussing weight savings of a couple of pounds or a ounces versus being unsafe.

[Jack Tarlin]

For some people, a 40 pound pack is "light". For some people, anything over 25 is "heavy." It's up to the individual.

But if you sacrifice safety and common sense in order to save a little weight, then this is always a mistake. Backpackers need to be self-sufficient, i.e. they need to carry their own shelter, sufficient food, and enough clothes.

Every year on the Trail I see some ultra-lightweight gram weenie sniveling his way into a completely full shelter, practically in tears, begging for some space, and in some cases, DEMANDING space since he's tentless. Or I see folks begging food repeatedly, or having to depend on other people's extra clothes when they come in at night in the rain, almost hypothermic.

But yeah, one is carrying the weight-saving thing too far if this sort of thing ever happens to them. Anyone that ever finds themselves in the situations I described above needs to re-evaluate; they need to stop relying on other folks, and they need to start carrying more stuff.

[hammock engineer]

Well put Jack.

Where I hike I usually do not see anyone unless I am hiking in a group. I have to be self-sufficient. I think that if your plan is to depend on others to help you when you get into trouble, you need to revaluate your choice of hobbies.

Your shelter analogy begs the question if people hiking the AT use the shelter system as a crutch in order to forgo some saftey and try to go lighter.

[dloome]

Lets see now, does pack weight REALLY make a difference?

Posing the question another way, would I prefer walking to Maine lugging 50 pounds upon my back or just 25 of them?

Even though it has often been done both ways I wonder what would I really prefer for me??

OF COURSE PACK WEIGHT MAKES A DIFFERENCE! But you're referring to something I'm not talking about at all- In this case, 25 pounds of weight in one way or the other is without a doubt going to profoundly influence your comfort, speed, efficiency, etc. I'm talking about people like Glen Van P. hiking without any insulating clothing or rain gear when he could add in very light items to serve those functions, all without having any real effect on his comfort, mileage, whatever. To me that's irresponsible and illogical. So yeah, anyone would rather thru hike with 25 vs. 50 pounds, that much is obvious. But would you be willing to leave insulating clothing at home in order to hike with 5.1 pounds vs. 5.9 pounds? THAT'S what I'm talking about.

Like I say, do what makes you happy. If you have fun trimming pack weight like this, go for it. But I can still believe it to be irresponsible and criticize it.
When cutting pack weight has a very real and practical purpose, by all means, go for it. I certainly do.

But if we're doing it for entertainment value or as a sort of contest, while at the same time making unwise assumptions about conditions or decreasing our margin of safety to the point of relying on others to compensate for errors in judgement, THAT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM!

Like I say, going light makes logical sense. I carry as little as possible while maintaining what I feel is a high level of self reliance and independence, and the versatility to adapt to, and (more or less) comfortably survive in inclement conditions that are ALWAYS possible in full 3 season conditions. I just seriously question that fact that people can accomplish that with a three or four pound pack. I can accomplish this with a 7 or 8 pound pack, and the weight difference has no real effect on my hiking speed or comfort.

So I don't see the need to make very real and potentially dangerous sacrifices in gear which result in no practical benefit. That's it.
__________________________________________________ _______




A quick rundown of some of my current 3 season gear list for the people who asked follows. This is a solid 3 season gear list. I've used this in long term wet, cold conditions, temps in the single digits, light snow, high elevations, rough trail, long waterless stretches, etc. This is not a theoretical gear list. It works. I stay warm, dry, and generally quite comfortable.

-Golite Jam2, modified
-Lair 1 tarp with home made storm flap at open end, home made stakes.
-Mountain Hardwear Phantom 32 bag. Add in a 3 oz. home made silk liner for certain hikes.
-GG Nightlite torso pad. I use my pack for my legs. If I have to camp on snow or very cold, hard, uninsulating ground, I use my pack under my torso pad. My legs may feel a little chilly but it ultimately keeps my core warmer. Works very well.

-Golite Virga w/b shell jacket
-Wisp wind/DWR pants. (Frogg Toggs pants for areas with a greater chance of consistently wet, windy, cold conditions.)
-Merino wool cap made by my Mom with ripstop just over the ears for wind protection. Weighs nothing, extremely warm. AWESOME piece of gear.
-Shell mittens, add in light polyester liner for colder conditions. I always carry something for my hands. If you freeze your hands, all the gear in your pack becomes useless if you can't operate a buckle or zipper.
-Polartec 100 tight fitting microfleece is what I generally use as insulation. I very rarely need anything during the day as I hike, my shell jacket provides enough insulation if I'm active and need it. Once in a very great while I wear this while hiking. When I do, I never let myself get overheated or sweat excessively, and make sure it's bone dry by the time I stop and camp.
-WM down vest. Carry this on higher, colder or longer hikes. Never worn while hiking. It's most frequent use is when I sort of use it as a blanket, laying it over me inside my sleeping bag. LOTS of extra warmth this way, and I can easily remove it for versatility.

-Haven't carried cooking gear in ages, although I do have a very nice, well tuned alcohol system I made. Not for weight savings, I honestly just don't care either way, and without is simpler.
-Other than that, pretty basic. Soda bottles for water with a backup Platy, AM water treatment or nothing, depending. Petzl headlamp I've modified to attach to my hipbelt, duct tape, tiny tube of superglue, Victorinox Classic mini knife with everything removed but the scissors removed, little golf pencil and a couple sheets of paper, Hefty bag pack liner.

Yeah I probably forgot a few things, and there are some things I add in once in awhile like headnet, extra water capacity, more navigational materials, whatever. You get the point.

My active hiking clothing is usually Asics running shorts, Golite t-shirt, (long sleeve base layer for consistently cooler weather) Brooks mesh running cap, Defeet bike socks, New Balance 606 with Montrail Endurance inserts.

[Mags]

When your gear becomes your hobby, then you've probably no longer a backpacker, but a person who hikes to do their real hobby: lightweight gear.

I go lightweight to hike more. I don't hike to see how light I can go.

Many techie types gravitate towards what I call "ultralight hobbyists".

Seems few of the hobbyists are long distance hikers (be they thru or section hikers).

Just as many people love getting stereo equipment for the sake of getting cool equipment (type of music is secondary) , ultralight backpacking attracts a similar crowd: Gear is all.

Not good..or bad. But a much different focus than those who use the equipment to hike rather than hike to use equipment.

Just my .05 worth.

[Hoku]

I think of it in terms of economics... each additional ounce lost has diminishing marginal utility compared to the ounces you shaved before, and each one cuts deeper into your comfort/"safety" (I prefer "contingency"), so everyone ought to have an intersection point of the comfort/contingency lost by shedding an additional ounce vs. the comfort on their back of that ounce lost. It gets complicated by the various types of comfort when you're actually applying it to your pack, but when you get finished it ends up as a two-dimensional graph, and your packweight should be right at the intersection where the pain of cutting that last item outweighs the pain of carrying that extra ounce.

Personally that intersection is right around 15 lbs. dry for me. My shoulders are never the thing that is hurting, and my comfort level is adequate.