Training Dogs for the Trail

[screwysquirrel]

Thank God for dogs! They provide many threads of considerate thoughts on this site. And it doesn't matter whether you love em or not, they're gonna be out there no matter you post here. So get used to it. And now about the homeless on the trail.....

[java]

.... However, after a 20-mile day and your ready to fall asleep when a group comes in with a dog like the above group did then I have 2 choices? One, I can said something. Yet, being outnumbered 6 to 1 would not be a smart thing on my part. Two, get up and move on which I did. ...

Jill, really, I don't mean to be a jerk, but a.) why not say something? and b.) wasn't it the group bothering you or just the dog? I have a feeling it was the entire group including the dog, not just the dog. Inconsiderate people can be inconsiderate on many fronts. Talking late into the night at a shelter, smoking in the shelter, doing dishes in the watersource, not bear bagging can all be considered rude.
I've met many many ******** on the trail, and frankly very few of them are of the canine persuasion. ******** come with and without fur. That's reality, both on and off the trail. Some of them even come from my home state.
I meet plenty of them when I take my dog for a walk in the city. I hate poeple who let their dogs off leash where it isn't allowed, but hey, that's life and I deal with it. I tell them to leash their dogs because I can't be responsible if my dog bites theirs when my is leashed and theirs is not. Not that he would, but thats the law...
Case in point:
I remember hiking out of Pearisburg in 2001 with a bunch of hikers, it was raining hard. Among our 'group' was a guy and his dog who I had hiked with on and off for some weeks. I considered him a decent hiker and good trail friend. When the shelter was full, he didn't immediatley relinquish his dog's 'shelter space' for a newly arrived, very wet hiker...not cool...so instead of brooding about it I spoke up. "Hey man, make room for a wet incoming hiker, that space is hers, not your dogs."
He may have been miffed that I kicked his dog out, but he got over it. The dog lived, the hikers had a dry place to stay, and we all got on with our lives.
My advice for dog owners who want to hike with their dogs:
Be respectful and vocal. ASK the hikers your sharing a space with if they perfer the dog stays out of the shelter, or if they perfer that you tent 100 yards away. Don't be upset if they ask you to move. Pick up after your dog, and most importantly, don't push your dog too hard. It's your hike and they don't have a choice.

[mattyg2]

It’s great to finally see a thread where people are trying to educate themselves concerning dogs on the trail.

Here is some tricks I've developed while hiking with my dog, hopefully people will start posting some more instead of all of the pointless bickering.

First and most importantly, socialize your dog at home before ever taking him on a trail. Get him used to strangers, other dogs, cats, deer, and other wild animals, cars, loud noises, and anything else you can imagine. The more comfortable your dog is in different situations, the more likely he will be to obey.

The second is obviously obedience train your dog. Come, heel, and down are all critical commands that you dog should be able to perform in all of the above locations with a leash, and finally, without a leash on (on a side note, while training, never give a command you can not enforce immediately, if in doubt, let the dog slide until you are in a position to enforce it).

As for hiking, I find that after the dog is well trained; hiking with a retractable leash attached to my pack is very easy and effective. Beware; constant pulling on retractable leashes can lead to the leash snapping, causing injury to both the dog and the owner.

For the times that the dog is off leash, and there will be times when this is more practical / safe, train your dog to an electronic shock collar. I have had tremendous success with this, and it provides and extra level of security and control for your dog.

For those of you that haven't seen one, it is a collar with a remote control that delivers a SLIGHT electric shock to the dog when a remote control is used. Having tried it on myself several times, (including unintentional times when my brother was playing practical jokes) it is a very surprising tingling sensation that really causes you to stop dead in your tracks, either human or dog. It does not cause pain, but will definitely surprise and stop a dog, allowing you to recall it. Whenever I take my dog anywhere off leash, the collar goes on, either on the trail, around my yard, or at the park. This way, you have the best of both worlds. For those of you that are interested, Innotec (spelled something like this) makes excellent ones.

While making camp, I find that the best method is to bring a long lead, tie it around a nearby tree, and then rig a tarp for the dog, staking three corners and tying the top to the tree trunk with the leash around it. I think this is called the flying diamond, but I'm not positive. This gives your dog ample protection from foul weather, room to roam around, and can be placed near shelters or tents without the dog bothering either one.

As for dogs crapping on the trail, I’m still trying to work out an easy method. Right now, I get my dog off of the trail, and then bury it using local debris, although this is a real pain. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Hope this helps anyone hiking with a dog, and I look forward to hearing any other suggestions or tricks you have picked up along the way. The rest of this forum is very informative; hopefully this thread will start educating dog owners about proper etiquette and responsibility, allowing everyone to enjoy hiking trails.

[LIhikers]

Well, substitute running chainsaw for AK47, still pretty bleak idea. The thought was to show the absurdity of saying it is others problems to get over their fear of dogs instead of the other way around.

But on the point of changing minds, I disagree here. I used to think having a dog on a trail was no big deal until I started listneing to other hikers on boards like this. It opened my eyes to the things I was blind to as a dog lover. Years ago I was converted. Hopefully others can be too.

First of all, noplace, in any of my posts have I suggested that those who fear dogs should "get over it". Fear of anything is not something that is easily put aside.

As for changing minds, sure that's possible. I'm sure we've all done it on different issues over the years. For me decision making is an internal process, I don't do it just because someone says I should. That's what I ment when I said.."The chance of either of us convincing the other to change his mind is slim to none." In an effort to better understand this whole issue, one day shortly after Christmas, I'll sit down and reread this entire thread paying particular attention to those who say that dogs shouldn't be on the trail. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind too.

[Blue Jay]

[color=black]Everyone is allowed to hike the trail; I can't do anything about them. Except maybe avoid them. If you hate dogs, avoid them.Yeah, you don't like dogs on the trail. We GET it!!<O =""></O>

So why reply so negatively when someone is actually seeking advice on how to do something that is actually ALLOWED on the trail??? Expecially when they're asking how to do it responsibly???

[color=black]Does this forum always have to resort to this? We've heard it before.

1) Avoid them, you can't.
2) They are not acting responsibly, they are pointing clearly unknown weapons at random hikers.
3) Yes you've heard it before and you'll hear it again. The fact that you refuse to see what is happening is irrelevent. You used to see a lot more garbage along the trail, eventually people get the idea.
4) Minnisota pleaase don't help, you make me want to hike with a dog (don't worry I won't).

[LIhikers]

LI, I am very aware that an AK-47, even a hollow one, is illegal. I certainly am not claiming anyone should carry one. It was merely an attempt to show you what you are doing. To anyone hiking near you, your fingers are on a trigger (the leash). To anyone hiking near you, you could pull that trigger (letting go of the leash) at any time. Is your legal right to have an 80 pound dog in the woods, while we are miles from help, worth terrorizing people? Clearly to you it is, YOU DO NOT CARE. Actually someone who is pointing an AK-47 is more honest than you are, because they are risking arrest for terrorizing people. You just do it for your own amusement with no risk. You are dog people, cold and unfeeling.

By me bringing my dog with me hiking I'm not "terrorizing" anyone. For me to terrorize someone would mean that I'm purposefully setting out to cause them great fear, and that's not the case. You acuse me of not caring about other people, and that's not true. If I didn't care about others I wouldn't take the measures I do to control my dog so that noone else has to deal with him. Please reread my post from a couple of days ago. Keep in mid that saying that I don't care about others, just because we don't agree on this point about dogs, doesn't mean it's true. That would be like some couch potato saying that anyone who likes to sleep in the woods must be crazy. Does it make him right just because he doesn't understand what we like to do? No, it surely doesn't. And in the same way you are not right about making statements about me just because you and I don't understand each other on this point.

After Christmas, when life is a little less hectic, I'm going to reread this entire thread paying particular attention to the posts that side with no dogs on the trail. Who knows, if I glean some new information that I haven't already considered maybe I'll change my mind.

[Peter Mossberg]

Did you know that 90% of dog owners believe that their dog is above average in behavior?

(all right, I made up the statistic, but you get my point)

There are good dogs and bad dogs. Unfortunately (like parents) , the dog owner is usually blinded by his or her love for the dog, and does not recognize a bad dog.

Also,
Someone suggested that if you have a dog, you should tent 100 yards away from the shelter. I don't know about the rest of the AT, but in NH, you must sleep in the shelter, or find a site at least 1/4 mile away (and usually) 200 feet off the trail.

[Blue Jay]

By me bringing my dog with me hiking I'm not "terrorizing" anyone. For me to terrorize someone would mean that I'm purposefully setting out to cause them great fear, and that's not the case. You acuse me of not caring about other people, and that's not true.

As I'm sure you are aware, hundreds of people are attacked and bitten by dogs each year. This is an open fact. If you come upon one of these people you WILL cause them great fear, you know this also. Therefore you are purposefully setting out to cause these people great fear. Granted you may not come upon one of these people. So you are in a way correct, you are only a random terrorist. That's so much better.

[Blue Jay]

just because we don't agree on this point about dogs, doesn't mean it's true. That would be like some couch potato saying that anyone who likes to sleep in the woods must be crazy. Does it make him right just because he doesn't understand what we like to do? No, it surely doesn't. And in the same way you are not right about making statements about me just because you and I don't understand each other on this point.

Your analogy has some major flaws, but it again does illustrate why dog people just don't get it. The couch potato does not threaten those who sleep in the woods. Those who sleep in the woods do not threaten couch potatoes. They DON'T EVEN SEE EACH OTHER. You simply do not see those you threaten.

[SGT Rock]

By me bringing my dog with me hiking I'm not "terrorizing" anyone. For me to terrorize someone would mean that I'm purposefully setting out to cause them great fear, and that's not the case. You acuse me of not caring about other people, and that's not true. If I didn't care about others I wouldn't take the measures I do to control my dog so that noone else has to deal with him.

I disagree, you can terrorize someone without ever meaning to. Everhave someone do something stupid in a car ahead of you on the highway? Terrorizing isn't it. But they probably didn'tmean to scare you.

Anyway, the thread is about how to best train your dog to hike so it gets along with people. How about train your dog to do without you while you hike and train yourself to do without your dog? Hmmmm....

Seriously, the question is valid as if someone asks what is the best gun for hiking the AT, the obvious answer is none. Think about it

[LIhikers]

SGT Rock said..."Anyway, the thread is about how to best train your dog to hike so it gets along with people"

Point well taken. Having raised a dozen dogs that went on to become guides for the blind, law enforcement, and arson dogs I can start off by saying that it's a process that involves a lot of time and effort. If a person isn't willing to put in the work they should never take their dog out in public. I believe there are 2 kinds of attention any pet dog should have. The first is obedience training and the second is socialization. The dog not only has to listen and obey it's handler but it needs to know how to act when in the company of people and other animals. In addition, the dog's handler has to be trained as well. The handler has to know how to control the dog, both verbally and with the leash, and what to expect and not expect of the animal. All of this is basic and nothing specific to hiking and the training never ends. They need to be treated and handled the same day in and day out. There are whole books, websites, and organizations that specialize in training and they can expalin it better than we could in this small space.

Then there are a few things specific to hiking. Things that they'll have to deal with on a trail that they don't normally experience. Things like sleeping in a tent, or navigating rugged terrain. Not chasing other animals, including people, should be part of the dog's regular training.

[Duggie]

I am not a dog owner, but am reasonably fond of most dogs. One subtlety I have difficulty with is being sniffed and licked. I KNOW they are just being friendly, but in the summer, when I am in shorts, the feeling of having a wet nose and tongue on me feels unclean. Yeah, I know the crap about a dog's tongue is cleaner than a human's but I also see the old nose up the butt move. I am sure all dogs trained for hiking are perfect in the eyes of the owner, but the perspective is everything.

[Puck]

....I have difficulty.... being sniffed and licked. I KNOW they are just being friendly, but in the summer, when I am in shorts, the feeling of having a wet nose and tongue on me feels unclean. Yeah,....the old nose up the butt move.

The quote was intentionaly modified for distortion.

Duggie...couldn't you just close your eyes for a few minutes and daydream?

[Seraphim]

Seraphim: I have also hiked with a very energetic dog that didn't belong to me. At the beginnning, her seemingly-ceaseless motion and misbehaviours had me uneasy about having her in the mix of everyday hiking. By katahdin, I would've fought for Kaya... She added so much to every day, cleaned our pots, watched our backs, gave us entertainment and extra exercise... and not to mention LOVE! She was part of our family, and in the wilderness, it just wasn't the same without her. <O</OWell Seraphim, It was not the same for the people who had to put up with this dog and the owners. I was in one of the shelters when Kava, you and her owners came into one of the shelters. Not only did they not take care of the dog as it jumped all over the place, (Including my gear), but it barked enough for me to leave, they failed to clean up it’s crap and then I heard later from others who left also, they let the dog sleep in the shelter. I can understand why you folks felt you needed it to watch your backs as you all were either wasted most of the time or talking about how wasted you got at the last town. Which is why maybe you and your friends failed to see the reality of trail & shelter behavior. <O></O>

Okay, I do not know who you are or when you met me, but all of this blasphemy is ridiculous. I hiked the trail, just like everyone else, and I happened to meet up with Lil Munchkin and her lab, Kaya, in Stratton. I had pretty much hiked my own hike up to that town, soloing quite a bit, and I never had problems with any hiker, ever. I understand that some do not take to dogs, especially an energetic one. But Kaya settled down after we settled- she was just a hiker, exploring her home for the night and marking territory. I am not her owner, so do not scold me for her behaviour, which I never recall. She did sleep in the shelter once it started getting cold, but only so she wouldn't FREEZE TO DEATH! And we only slept in a few shelters, so I am curious as to where we met you and all of the other hikers who apparently had a problem with Kaya. If you have a problem as to our hiking tendencies, then speak your mind instead of being ridiculous and holding back until after the hike. There's nothing I can do now. Oh, and yeah, we did get wasted in town in Maine. A lot. But that is because we had walked 2000 miles to get there. Yea, we were the party train. Everyone remembers, and everyone knows. Also, not only are my town antics none of your business, they are obviously none of your concern. I am a wild child with a passionate heart, a sound mind, and dreams bigger than the life I've lived up to this point. I am a gypsy, and I am a thru-hiker. I deserve at least the respect of having done the AT, LNT and being a remarkable teenager.

[JillJones]

Okay, I do not know who you are or when you met me,

You were too stoned at the time to remember. You were falling all over the place. When you tried to talk to me you made no sense at all. That was the 1st time. After that I kept my distance.

but all of this blasphemy is ridiculous.

So was watching you stumble, and fall and listen to your stories about getting high.

I hiked the trail, just like everyone else, and I happened to meet up with Lil Munchkin and her lab, Kaya, in Stratton. I had pretty much hiked my own hike up to that town, soloing quite a bit, and I never had problems with any hiker, ever.

Once again, how could you remember when you were stoned most of the time? But then you must have had some problems with hikers. Once again your words:

Grumpy hikers are worse than an annoying dog.... And I have seen hikers get bitten, but because of their stupidity.

Why were they grumpy hikers? Maybe they just wanted to get some sleep or enjoy some peace and quiet. So how many hikers have you seen get bitten and what stupid things were they doing to deserve to be bitten? Does someone's "Stupidity' mean it's ok to inflict injury upon this person?

I understand that some do not take to dogs, especially an energetic one. But Kaya settled down after we settled- she was just a hiker, exploring her home for the night and marking territory. I am not her owner, so do not scold me for her behaviour, which I never recall.

I didn't scold you for the dog's behavior. I simply was telling what I experienced and how it differed from your perspective.

She did sleep in the shelter once it started getting cold, but only so she wouldn't FREEZE TO DEATH! And we only slept in a few shelters, so I am curious as to where we met you and all of the other hikers who apparently had a problem with Kaya. If you have a problem as to our hiking tendencies, then speak your mind instead of being ridiculous and holding back until after the hike.

You asked why I didn't say anything. Well here are your words not mine.

"By katahdin, I would've fought for Kaya..."

Not a wise thing for a single woman on the trail to confront a group of people who are stoned. What if the owners, or you did not like what I had to say and an argument or yelling started... Once again your words..

"A dog is there to protect it owner"

I guess if I had been bitten, it would have been my stupidity because I made the mistake and took your advice and: Your words:

"speak your mind instead of being ridiculous and holding back until after the hike."

There's nothing I can do now.

Hmm, Maybe an apology...

Oh, and yeah, we did get wasted in town in Maine. A lot.

According to you it seems you got either high or drunk as much as possible long before you got to Maine.

But that is because we had walked 2000 miles to get there.

I think you need to recheck your mileage as to what you did walk/hike. I listened to your stories as you were pretty well stoned. You had so many places you had been since you left Damascus, and stories you told, that you would have had to hiked 40 miles a day to be a Thru hiker.

According to your post on June 9th, 2004 -

"Today is the day I'm leaving for Maine... from Damascus. I'm starting late, but it's just been weighing on my mind, and I wasn't planning on hiking until next year...

So you didn't leave from Springer this year and walk 2,000 miles. By the way, there are thousands of hikers who have walked 2,000 miles and didn't feel the need to get stoned and falling down drunk.

Yea, we were the party train. Everyone remembers, and everyone knows. Also, not only are my town antics none of your business, they are obviously none of your concern.

Your town antics are not my business, concern or whatever else you do with your life. However, you're the one who choose to tell it to everyone within earshot. You're the one on the trail making the ass of yourself. You and your "Party Train" live in your own little world not caring about other hikers sense of peace and enjoyment on the trail and in shelters.

I am a wild child with a passionate heart, a sound mind, and dreams bigger than the life I've lived up to this point. I am a gypsy, and I am a thru-hiker

(And your definition of a thru-hiker is?) I read your post where you came onto White Blaze on 8/04/2004 and wrote.

Help A Hiker Out!
Hello everyone, Seraphim here in Waynesboro VA... I've come to WhiteBlaze in good faith of someone, anyone, having a tent for a thru-hiker in a jam. I got my tent stolen from the YMCA while I was working (at the HUT).... to get money to get to Maine. So, in making money, I lost it, everything except my therma, my sleep bag and my pack (thank god I feel naked without it!) Be careful at the Y, everyone! Anyway, if anyone has a tent that they would like to get rid of.... feel free to email me...
PLEASE!

Maybe some of that money you spent getting drunk and high on could have gone to buying yourself a tent...

I deserve at least the respect of having done the AT,

(Once again, please fill us in on your start dates and details and I'm sure it will not hold up)

LNT and being a remarkable teenager.

Yes, you are a teenager and a very troubled one at that.

Oh and here's your banana back I think you might have slipped on it...

[JillJones]

Jill, really, I don't mean to be a jerk, but a.) why not say something? and b.) wasn't it the group bothering you or just the dog? I have a feeling it was the entire group including the dog, not just the dog. Inconsiderate people can be inconsiderate on many fronts. Talking late into the night at a shelter, smoking in the shelter, doing dishes in the watersource, not bear bagging can all be considered rude.
I've met many many ******** on the trail, and frankly very few of them are of the canine persuasion. ******** come with and without fur. That's reality, both on and off the trail. Some of them even come from my home state.
I meet plenty of them when I take my dog for a walk in the city. I hate poeple who let their dogs off leash where it isn't allowed, but hey, that's life and I deal with it. I tell them to leash their dogs because I can't be responsible if my dog bites theirs when my is leashed and theirs is not. Not that he would, but thats the law...
.

You’re right that my main problem was with the hikers and not the dog. I love dogs. However, if you read my post in answer to the girl Seraphim then you might understand why I did not say anything at the time. I really wish dogs could be on the trail. As one poster suggested that maybe they should have some type of license, or permit stating their dog has been thru a Trail Dog Training Course. However, the people who do have well behaved dogs are the ones who suffer. More and more people are turning against dogs on the trail and I don't want that. As a single female hiker I wanted to bring my very well trained dog with me. The reason I didn’t was, I read where one girl had her dog shot twice and was lucky that it lived. Will it come to this? People are scared enough as it is. There are a number of people who carry firearms on the trail. It would not take much for a scared hiker to shoot in self-defense and not only end up killing a dog, but also another hiker.... I guess my problem with that poster was that she felt everything was ok and how could people be so cruel. She was not only blind to what the dog was doing, but as to what her and her group were doing as well…

[minnesotasmith]

"She did sleep in the shelter once it started getting cold, but only so she wouldn't FREEZE TO DEATH!"

You just admitted to taking a dog on the Trail for which you were UNPREPARED to properly care for during the hike. If you had been ready to properly care for your dog, it would have had an adequate (noncotton) dog sweater, room in your tent for it to sleep, been a breed (husky/Malamute/Great Pyrenee/etc.) that could have handled the temperatures, or you'd have had the wisdom to only take your dog when the temps were within its range.

Jeez, what blindness and inconsiderateness you have towards your own animal. If you have this degree of lack of awareness towards how badly you treated your own pet, no wonder you are simply ineducable (like trying to teach a kid with Downs Syndrome differential equations) to how much of a PITA you have been with bringing a dog on the Trail.

Likewise, hiking around you when you have a dog with you in the future will surely involve you being a jerk to innocent strangers, again. Stop being a jerk, and leave off taking a dog on the Trail to those who can do it without degrading other hikers' experience; you obviously can't manage this.

[saimyoji]

I'm not defending Seraphim, MS, but you should read more carefully. She did not bring the dog on the trail, merely defended its presence. It doesn't make her arguments valid, but it does make yours invallid when directed at her.

[minnesotasmith]

Seraphim apparently took part in a group hike where a dog was brought on theTrail without adequate preparation, and said and did nothing when this led to either or both of the dog and/or innocent strangers hiking to suffer from this, not seeing anything wrong about it. Too, she still doesn't seem able to understand that what took place was wrong, even though it has been explained to her very simply and clearly. IMO, she has demonstrated some kind of mental block about the whole subject, that arguably disqualifies her from bringing any dog on the AT, ever.

[MOWGLI]

One subtlety I have difficulty with is being sniffed and licked. I KNOW they are just being friendly, but in the summer, when I am in shorts, the feeling of having a wet nose and tongue on me feels unclean.

In 2000 and for a couple of years after, there were some feral goats living on a ridge along the AT in Virginia. I think it was the same ridge that Sarvers Cabin is on.

When hikers would come upon the goats, the goats would aggresively run up to the hikers and treat them like a salt block.

Well, I get to the shelter just north of where I encountered the goats, and I'm reading the shelter register. Everyone is posting about their encounters with the goats. I come upon one posting, and the hiker wrote "I haven't been licked like that since the night before I left for the trail". Well, I nearly split my liver laughing over that one.

Another true story... I'm somewhere just north of the goats, and some dude with a blue blaze t-shirt (whose name I forget) starts talking jokingly about the goats being Baltimore Jack's love interest (sorry Jack - true story). Well, I didn't know who Jack was at the time, so I was kinda confused. The guy got a big kick out of the fact that I didn't know who Jack was. He just said "you may not know who he is now, but trust me, you will eventually". Jack, you sure have some interesting friends out there.

Maybe we should start a separate thread to tell tale about goat encounters.