I seen them close parking lots by putting up barriers to stop you from parking. How would they stop you from hiking? If they shut down, would that not mean that there would be a reduction in personnel to enforce the rules?
I seen them close parking lots by putting up barriers to stop you from parking. How would they stop you from hiking? If they shut down, would that not mean that there would be a reduction in personnel to enforce the rules?
Keep in mind if you are hurt and needing a rescue this shutdown issue may complicate things.
Order your copy of the Appalachian Trail Passport at www.ATPassport.com
Green Mountain House Hostel
Manchester Center, VT
http://www.greenmountainhouse.net
The National Parks Service oversees national parks and forest lands set aside for use by the public. Though these lands are specifically operated so the public has access to them, they are not open to the public at all times. Anyone who sets foot on national forest lands when they are closed to the public can be charged with trespass. The penalties for this include fines and imprisonment for up to six months
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6455738_fed...#ixzz2gIIhRMKk
some more crap
http://www.usda.gov/documents/usda-fs-shutdown-plan.pdf
Note that US Forest Service - which oversees the National Forest lands - is distinct from National Park Service. Unlike the NPS shutdown plan, the USFS shutdown plan that gollwoods linked makes no mention of expelling members of the public that have ventured onto National Forest lands, nor any mention of closing them to the public. (Normally, forests are closed to the public only during an emergency such as a forest fire, flood or avalanche.) I'm not sure of the formal status of the A-T (which is a National Scenic Trail administered by the NPS) where it traverses USFS lands.
Closing the national parks is always the first resort in a budget dispute, because it's such a highly visible sign of austerity. Needless to say, in a shutdown the agencies wouldn't really have spare manpower to police the backcountry. As someone mentioned upthread, this would most likely complicate search and rescue if such were needed. It would also limit the amount of law enforcement done in the backcountry. Since site policy forbids discussion of lawbreaking, I'll let the reader draw any further implications.
If the worst comes to pass, you could always come hike in upstate New York! Our Catskill Park is larger than all but one of the National Parks in the lower 48, and our Adirondack Park is larger than any four of them put together. There's some fantastic hiking here that a Federal shutdown wouldn't touch.
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
Please do not post about breaking the law in the event the National Parks are closed due to shutdown.
As mentioned, the National Forests are separate administrative units. They will have their own shutdown contingency plans.
Also, do not use this thread nor any other threads to get into the politics creating this possible impasse.
As it is getting rather close, keep discussion limited to the impacts affecting hiking the trail.
Thank you.
"Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
Call for his whisky
He can call for his tea
Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan
Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.
I hold paid backcountry reservations for a long-anticipated 14-day hike in GSMNP in October on the AT, Benton Mackeye and other trails. I called the backcountry office today for info and got only vague talk from a ranger that he thought no rec use would be allowed, but he seemed unsure and suggested calling back later this week.
I too have vague recollections of news accounts during the 1990s shutdown of guards turning AT hikers away from Shenandoah. So now what?
(if pols want to pitch a tantrum, couldn't they just hold their breath for an hour or two?)
Surely! Let me just state one general principle of law, and then be quiet. I argue that it is a principle that applies broadly on the trail as in everyday life. Stating it comes close to being a political discussion only because law is inextricably intertwined with the politics that create it.
A bedrock principle of law in our society is that it is created by the Legislature, enforced by the Executive, and interpreted by the Judiciary. The Executive has no power to create law beyond what the Legislature has delegated to it. And law is not law until it is promulgated: we as citizens have a right to know the metes and bounds of what is legal.
How would I apply this to a shutdown? In the event that a shutdown closes the national parks, the A-T outside NPS lands (for example, on easements on private land, in state parks, or in USFS lands) remains in a legal grey area with no Judicial precedent to guide it - we have little legal experience with the impact of a Federal shutdown on trail easements. If an actual landowner announces closure, I shall respect the landowner's rights.
If Federal agents attempt to close a trail easement without legislation mandating it, or without at least notice of the closure either in the Federal Register or posted according to State requirements near the point where I enter, then I (if I can find the time to get away) fully intend to enter on the grounds that no law forbids it and that I as a member of the public can presume a right of entry. (Note that trail easements are granted to the public, not to the government.) In short: I believe myself to be breaking no law.
If a Federal agent claims that I am wrong, then the legal precedent on trespass is generally that it does not take place until the intruder knows (by being directly ordered to depart) or ought to know that he is trespassing. If he ought to know, it is by virtue of notice being posted, or by presumption that one may not enter a dwelling or its curtilage without permission. So the worst that ought to happen - given that notice has not been published nor posted that the public is excluded - is that the Federal agent orders me to depart, and I am not a trespasser until and unless I fail to comply and depart by the most expeditious route. Which, of course, I shall do. I find it highly unlikely that a jury would find against me. (As a practical matter, I also find it unlikely in the event of a shutdown that there would be the staff available to police the grey area, but that's not really relevant: I'm staying on the right side of the law at all times, as far as I can tell.)
Any discussion of the arguments that a prosecutor might advance to convince a jury otherwise would stray into forbidden realms of politics. But a prudent challenger to the "law" should be warned that a likely outcome is that the "trespasser" will be haled into court to face stand-alone charges of "resisting arrest," "disorderly conduct," or "aiding and abetting," with no underlying charge to justify the "arrest," no lawful order disobeyed by the "disorderly" conduct, and no actual crime being "abetted." Those who wish to avoid defending against such charges should behave accordingly.
In short, I am not advocating lawbreaking, because I do not intend to be, nor advise others to be, anywhere that we are ordered to stay out of. I therefore hold that any law I plan to break is, in fact, no law at all.
I view this discussion as analogous to an earlier one in which I remarked that, while New York has no state law prohibiting hitchhiking, many counties - including all but one that the A-T traverses - forbid it, and New York's drivers' manual states, erroneously, that it is unlawful to pick up hitchhikers. Which makes hitching difficult in New York because "everyone knows it's illegal" (including the local cops!), even though the legislature has never seen fit to pass such a law.
Legally: "There's no law against it." Practically: "The nonexistent law is still widely enforced as if it existed." Politically: "Proceed as you find principled and prudent, in light of the legal and practical considerations. It would be inappropriate for me to advocate a position here."
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
so you are saying no one will be in trouble for using the A T if the national forests are closed to users. this is a fact you are saying that there is no point discussing it because you know that HOW?
I hold paid backcountry reservations for a long-anticipated 14-day hike in GSMNP in October on the AT, Benton Mackeye and other trails. I called the backcountry office today for info and got only vague talk from a ranger that he thought no rec use would be allowed, but he seemed unsure and suggested calling back later this week.
I too have vague recollections of news accounts during the 1990s shutdown of guards turning AT hikers away from Shenandoah. So now what?
(if pols want to pitch a tantrum, couldn't they just hold their breath for an hour or two?)
The AT is a National Scenic Trail, I think in most cases enforcement authority is by where it is located, with overall guidance from NPS. Also this thread is about the Parks. If the Parks are closed, the AT is closed through the parks. (Unless you are finding something that says management authority for National Scenic Trails is not determined by administrative unit location.) This dog and pony show has occurred before, and there are already laws in place on how it goes down. The Executive branch has authority to manage the NPS. When there is a shutdown, there are essential and nonessential employees. Top management is typically retained among the essential employees. They will have shutdown protocols put in place per laws already established. The things they need to undertake are already primed up before any shutdown and will get published. I haven't looked for them but some have been posted already. Read the one posted by WM from Dec 15th of 2011.
They may have law enforcement counted among essential employees. I don't know any park rangers personally to ask them how they are classified. That is more of a side issue anyway. I am fairly certain however that the Sec of the Interior is considered essential and will be able to direct shutdown operations, as are very likely park superintendants and forest supervisors. The decision makers will still be working and able to decide closures. It is not actually the entire government closing.
What you do outside the National Parks is a different matter. If the management authority is federal and there is a shutdown, there will be decisions made about closures. So please do not post about breaking the law by saying you are entering any areas noted as closed. Thank you.
"Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
Call for his whisky
He can call for his tea
Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan
Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.
I've already announced that I am NOT entering any areas POSTED or PUBLISHED as closed, and I'm leaving when requested.
I'm also not staying home based on rumor and innuendo. That's all.
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
Go to a state park instead for the three days the parks are closed.
I have the North end reservations for shelters the 18th-20th in three shelters. It just sucks after spending killer bucks on my sons gear we might have to change plans. Hope they fix it before the deadline. I need to do this section to for my AT section hike on the way to K. I have been trying not to skip and jump around on the trail, but do it on a path without gaps. We will probably still do a hike somewhere near on the AT. Just wish the dudes in DC would get their fights done before the deadlines. We are all victims liberal and conservatives! HIKE ON!!!
Miller
I know from a 2011 federal "****down" threat here in AL regarding Talladega N F and volunteer work that they had planned with us volunteers, that USFS will also announce a lot of closings but probably not close the trails for backcountry hiking. The rangers HAVE to preach what the boss says, but I seriously doubt there would be any on duty to keep me from running my weedeater on the trail, if they didn't get paid for it. oh, there is an alternate spelling for shutdown :-)
On 4/8/2011 2:47 PM, Lesley Hodge wrote:>
> Hello everyone!
>
> I am sure some of you watch CNN and are aware of a possible government shut down. We will not know if we shut down until after midnight tonight. If there is a government shut down, your volunteer agreements will be suspended until the government reopens. Please do not do any volunteer work on National Forest lands in the event the government does shut down. I do apologize for any and all inconvenience this may bring to you.
>
> Thank you for working with us and in advance for your patience.
>
> Lesley
>Lesley M. Hodge
>Natural Resource Specialist
>USDA- Talladega National Forest- Shoal Creek RD
>45 Highway 281
>Heflin, AL 36264
Does anyone know offhand whether the trail in Georgia goes is at risk of being affected? I'm not sure what lands it crosses in that section.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
the AT in Georgia is in national forest. it won't be affected
Just realized after reading this thread....I have an overnight backpacking trip planned with 6 other ladies from Turners Gap into Harpers Ferry this weekend. If the shutdown happens and then lasts that long, HF is a National Park. The whole town is, right? So not only would people who had planned to leave cars at the Visitors Center Friday night or Saturday morning not be able to do that, even if they did somehow manage it they couldn't get back up there because the shuttle buses wouldn't be running. Long steep walk back up there. (Yeah, I know, after walking nearly 20 miles why quibble about another couple of miles to the VC? Because no one wants to have go yet another few miles when they thought the hike was over. It's that simple.) At any rate...can they close down the town? If the rangers or park police monitor the parking lots, spaces, and the streets, then I would guess there will be no parking in or even driving thru town. I realize people live there full time and there's probably some kind of plan for them to get out and back in by showing proof that they live there. Don't know what that would mean for the retail store owners and food service places if the owners/employees don't live in town.
We'd be finishing up the hike on that 2 miles of C&O Canal towpath into town....isn't the C&O also a National Park? So would they barricade that, too? The bridge into town? Barricaded? The boundary of the park extends up the AT south of Loudon Heights - barricaded?
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Do some reading on the subject other then WB. no town is being shut down.
I'm so confused, I'm not sure if I lost my horse or found a rope.