the down side of Scott Jurek's record AT hike-- Baxter state park condemnation

[Donde]

ATT, I'm not talking about Jurek I'm talking about properly permitted ultras the likes of which muddy has claimed leave an aftermath and are populated with runners who don't care. Speaking as a multi time thru hiker, and ultra runner, I guarantee you the trail gets trashed worse on any given day in april from springer to hawk than it does after JFK50/ or the same comparison but campo to hauser vs. leona divide for the PCT.

Muddy when and where was this? and did you bring this to the attention of the land management agency that permitted the race?

After investing months of training and a c note or more nobody wants to risk a DQ, not to mention the fact that most ultra runners are hikers. I don't know where some of you guys get this idea that runners are some strange and different breed that hates the environment and LNT. Ultras do a much better job of getting permits and following the rules then our precious little thru-hikers, and the impact in feces alone is vastly more damaging on the thru side. The ultra community and the hiker community have a ton of overlap, and should be working together, but on both the AT, and the PCT hikers are working hard to alienate naturals allies, because of snowflake entitlement, and BS generalizations and rhetoric.

[BirdBrain]

You are prejudging Scott without knowing a thing about him. maybe he is keeping silent because folks like you have the pitchforks sharpened. I believe his facebook statement shows his intent and frankly goes well beyond any of the on-trail or couch -borne hikers. yes, a very unfortunate series events occurred, but don't extend this into a bigger value issue.

I did not prejudge him. In fact, I assumed the opposite. I assumed he had nothing to do with it. I was proven wrong. He is culpable and ignoring that culpability.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...=1#post1987733

[Dogwood]

But my parents always told me I was so special so unique. Are you saying they were wrong in telling me that?

I'm so fringe off the grid I had to look that one up in the urban dictionary Donde - snowflake entitlement. Now I have an additional esoteric hipstah phrase to trash out in an attempt to gain some type of female connection at the indie coffee house downtown.

[pknight212]

I find this whole situation difficult and completely unprofessional. Surely BSP knew of what was coming with Scott's endeavor and could've taken some more proactive steps if they were that concerned rather than publicly shaming him with a libelous post after the fact. I'm not arguing that he should be above the law; if he broke the rules, than by all means he deserved the citations, but it's extremely disappointing how all of this was handled.

A few points for consideration:

1) Obviously drinking/littering are legitimate concerns but I highly doubt that Scott is the first to enjoy a celebratory beverage or two at the summit. As far as littering, anybody who follows or knows anything about him knows how environmentally conscious he is (see the post on his facebook page about packing out and recycling all of his trash). Are we going to start shaming (and stealing photos without permission) from everyone who violates these rules now?

2) Group size - Obviously Scott's adventure attracted a lot of attention and drew some inspired followers. I'd question to what extent he really had control over the size of the group and whether everyone at the summit could truly be considered part of his 'entourage', or if this is just a more convenient version of the story for BSP. Moreover, it seems a bit hypocritical of them to criticize him on this point when just a week earlier they were heaping praise onto this group....



3) The whole corporate sponsorship issue was just bizarre. How does it hurt BSP that Scott receives support and equipment from these groups and displays their logos? Guess I'd better leave my Nike shorts and my Brooks shoes at home the next time I hit the trails up there.

Again, I don't have as big an issue with the fact that he got cited if he was deemed to be in violation of the rules (which I still find a bit questionable at some points, but it is what it is), it's how they chose to handle things with the smear campaign. I sure hope BSP has some good attorneys.

[Donde]

pknight
1. Who gives a **** if he is the first? You think because everybody breaks the rules it is ok? This is exactly why BSP is about give the AT the boot. yeah he is not the first that is the problem, and he is not the first to be cited for it either

2. In their comments it is noted that the Canadians broke into appropriate sized groups for their movements. A group picture from KSC does not suggest otherwise. Also contrary to whatever jokes folks down here might imagine, Canadian soldiers are quite professional; I know that firsthand.

3. It's a commercial use issue.

" Surely BSP knew of what was coming with Scott's endeavor and could've taken some more proactive steps" So you think it's their problem to get ready to cater to a thru hiker's needs. Surely Scott knew he was coming and him and his team could have prepared to follow the rules.

[rickb]

2. In their comments it is noted that the Canadians broke into appropriate sized groups for their movements. A group picture from KSC does not suggest otherwise. Also contrary to whatever jokes folks down here might imagine, Canadian soldiers are quite professional; I know that firsthand.

Yes, Baxter is to be commended for allowing a Canadian military training program into their park.

The planning and communication involved between the park and a military organization from another country would have almost certainly guaranteed a full understanding of the regulations, and insured that they would be followed scrupulously-- including the regulation that hiking group sizes be limited to no more than 12, rather than the 14 for which Jureck's so-called group was cited for.

Especially since all travelled and worked together.

I think it should also go without saying that military use of the park is far different than ther of a corporation (Jurek, Inc) and that the NB military base has had good relations with the Maine National Guard.

Kudos to the park on that one-- I hope to see more stories like that one I the future.

[TearDrop1776]

peakbagger, that asterisk would be well deserved.



I'm all for the AT ending outside the Park. Close the Birches. Let ATers make reservations if they want to visit, just like everyone else.

You are out of your mind if you think the asterick is well deserved. What happened at the end has NOTHING to do with the speed record or what he accomplished. Also, the truth is that if you close the AT to that Park, that park will barely be visited ever again. You're telling me that the hype around Baxter isn't around Khatadin and it being the Northern Terminus? C'mon with the jokes.

[TearDrop1776]

I think that Scott didn't do anything particularly wrong.

Of course, I can't see as well because I'm not up on as high of a horse as the BSP officials seem to be.

You won the internet with this one.

[Offshore]

I find this whole situation difficult and completely unprofessional. Surely BSP knew of what was coming with Scott's endeavor and could've taken some more proactive steps if they were that concerned rather than publicly shaming him with a libelous post after the fact. I'm not arguing that he should be above the law; if he broke the rules, than by all means he deserved the citations, but it's extremely disappointing how all of this was handled.

A few points for consideration:

1) Obviously drinking/littering are legitimate concerns but I highly doubt that Scott is the first to enjoy a celebratory beverage or two at the summit. As far as littering, anybody who follows or knows anything about him knows how environmentally conscious he is (see the post on his facebook page about packing out and recycling all of his trash). Are we going to start shaming (and stealing photos without permission) from everyone who violates these rules now?

2) Group size - Obviously Scott's adventure attracted a lot of attention and drew some inspired followers. I'd question to what extent he really had control over the size of the group and whether everyone at the summit could truly be considered part of his 'entourage', or if this is just a more convenient version of the story for BSP. Moreover, it seems a bit hypocritical of them to criticize him on this point when just a week earlier they were heaping praise onto this group....



3) The whole corporate sponsorship issue was just bizarre. How does it hurt BSP that Scott receives support and equipment from these groups and displays their logos? Guess I'd better leave my Nike shorts and my Brooks shoes at home the next time I hit the trails up there.

Again, I don't have as big an issue with the fact that he got cited if he was deemed to be in violation of the rules (which I still find a bit questionable at some points, but it is what it is), it's how they chose to handle things with the smear campaign. I sure hope BSP has some good attorneys.

1. So SJ posted about packing out his own trash? Big deal - we're supposed to praise someone because they carried out their own trash? That's a low bar.

2. You're being misleading (to put it kindly) regarding this photo. BSP did in fact, praise this group. You conveniently left out why. BSP praised this group because, when they were actually hiking and not posing for a group photo, they broke up into groups of 10. They didn't hike (or summit) as the group shown in the photo.

3. I don't see anybody arguing sponsorships but once you plaster yourself with logos in exchange for either financial or in-kind support, its a commercial activity. Personally, I don't care. I do find it odd that with all the resources for planning and logistics afforded to him by virtue of his sponsored entourage, he didn't bother to either find out the rules of BSP or deliberately decided to violate them. Given his high profile, he sets an example, so this is worse than some idiot day or thru hiker doing the same thing.

[egilbe]

You are out of your mind if you think the asterick is well deserved. What happened at the end has NOTHING to do with the speed record or what he accomplished. Also, the truth is that if you close the AT to that Park, that park will barely be visited ever again. You're telling me that the hype around Baxter isn't around Khatadin and it being the Northern Terminus? C'mon with the jokes.

Where do you get the idea that the park will barely be visited ever again? They limit access to the park to keep it in as wild a condition as possible. People are turned away at the entrance. 70,000 people visit the park every year and only ~500 even care about the AT at all. BSP will be happier, the impact to the park will be considerably lessened and it will not affect the park negatively and will only be a net gain.

[Traveler]

You are out of your mind if you think the asterick is well deserved. What happened at the end has NOTHING to do with the speed record or what he accomplished. Also, the truth is that if you close the AT to that Park, that park will barely be visited ever again. You're telling me that the hype around Baxter isn't around Khatadin and it being the Northern Terminus? C'mon with the jokes.

To put this into context, there is no "record". There is no official recognition of the feat by BSP, the ATC, or anyone outside of some of the enthusiasts of ultra running and hikers who follow this kind of thing. The issue of Jurek photos at the summit are unfortunate, as it does tend to provide a "poster boy" image of poor behavior the Park has long seated issues with. The photo represents all the stuff BSP deals with, which is an unfortunate connection.

The truth really is, the Park will do just fine without the AT terminus, which is the point. The park is routinely full from the road accesses during the summer months, termination of the AT at the Park boundary would actually relieve the park of a lot of nonsense they have to deal with and lessen the impact of the wilderness they try very hard to protect. To say the park will "barely be visited again" is one made by people who do not have a full understanding of the Park.

[BirdBrain]

Where do you get the idea that the park will barely be visited ever again? They limit access to the park to keep it in as wild a condition as possible. People are turned away at the entrance. 70,000 people visit the park every year and only ~500 even care about the AT at all. BSP will be happier, the impact to the park will be considerably lessened and it will not affect the park negatively and will only be a net gain.

This is a fact thru's don't grasp. We can barely get in doing it the right way Thru's are 3% and offer nothing but a burden. Yet we allow them in free and unannounced. Thru's are delusional.

[jersey joe]

I find this whole situation difficult and completely unprofessional. Surely BSP knew of what was coming with Scott's endeavor and could've taken some more proactive steps if they were that concerned rather than publicly shaming him with a libelous post after the fact.

They sure did know he was coming and were very proactive.
They had a ranger waiting on top for him with ticket book in hand. (I wonder if the ranger watched him open the champagne without saying anything)

Bissell couldn't stand the fact that an ultra-runner with sponsors was coming to his park and was going to get him one way or another.

[Donde]

They sure did know he was coming and were very proactive.
They had a ranger waiting on top for him with ticket book in hand. (I wonder if the ranger watched him open the champagne without saying anything)

Bissell couldn't stand the fact that an ultra-runner with sponsors was coming to his park and was going to get him one way or another.

Well it was real nice of him to make it easy on them by breaking multiple rules and publicizing it.

[Traveler]

They sure did know he was coming and were very proactive.
They had a ranger waiting on top for him with ticket book in hand. (I wonder if the ranger watched him open the champagne without saying anything)

Bissell couldn't stand the fact that an ultra-runner with sponsors was coming to his park and was going to get him one way or another.

As I understand it, BSP was also in contact with the corporate sponsors prior to SJs arrival at the park, to discuss various issues and regulations. I think the Park did what it could to mitigate the problems this might bring with it, unfortunately if the corporate sponsors didn't communicate this to their guy, or the team willfully breeched them (ignorance isn't much of an excuse) there is little BSP can do outside of enforcement.

There are other park rules with regard to commercial events, which someone with corporate sponsors would be considered involved in. Filming, party size, etc all play into that. There will always be defenders of ignoring rules for "special people" regardless of what those rules are, who the special people are, and what the activity is. I don't see how the Park is the bad guy overall.

I am sure there are people who would be miffed if someone going for the FKT in a car Big Twenty two (Aroostook Co ME) to Key West who was ticketed or arrested for speeding or reckless driving when they exceeded posted speed limits or busted other rules of the road. Even NJ has speed cops on the NJTP for those who believe speeding rules infringe on their liberties, presuming the bridge is open to get to it

[TearDrop1776]

Where do you get the idea that the park will barely be visited ever again? They limit access to the park to keep it in as wild a condition as possible. People are turned away at the entrance. 70,000 people visit the park every year and only ~500 even care about the AT at all. BSP will be happier, the impact to the park will be considerably lessened and it will not affect the park negatively and will only be a net gain.

Touche' ... I can't argue them statistics.

[rickb]

1. So SJ posted about packing out his own trash? Big deal - we're supposed to praise someone because the carried out their own trash? That's a low bar.

What?

The whole point of that post was about recycling trash that is not normally considered recyclable, and in so doing recognize the company with the technology that is making that happen.

In your case, I am sure the misunderstanding is just that -- and not a well-considered attempt to craft a story/image to further an agenda.

[dbright]

I feel as a thru hiker the ATC should just change the end point of the AT to somewhere else. Why would this one mountain be any more important to the ATC than finishing the thru hike at a different location.

[squeezebox]

There is no official organization that recognizes speed records of the AT. We as hikers are the ones that recognize the records. Scott willfully broke the rules. He does not deserve to hold the AT speed record. We as hikers need to revoke his title for the wellfare of the AT.

[TJ aka Teej]

The whole point of that post was

To me, it was about saying Look at all these Clif Bars I ate!
A carefully crafted advertizement for his longtime employer.